What happened to Efke 25 Film?

[borgida]

Hi PE

I emailed John a few months ago a few times and did not receive a response.

Thanks
Ross

 

[Photo Engineer]

Hi PE

I emailed John a few months ago a few times and did not receive a response.

Thanks
Ross

Thats good to know. Thanks.

Please don't give up. Send another message. I know that John is committed to quality. Leave a message with the phone answerer as well. Everything helps him improve his operation.

Also, take heed of my comments in the previous post regarding false economy.

PE

 

[Harrigan]

Perhaps PE would elaborate on the aging of film? If my understanding that PRO film is aged and tested and released when the emulsion is perfect. Amateur film is not aged and is released immediatly and expected to age on the shelf. I could be wrong but that is what I've been told about color film anyway. I don't know about aging bw film.

I've not used multiple emulsions of Efke so can't comment on the consistency. I can't imagine why you would ever use a film that is inconsistent.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Kodak film is not aged to get the optimum.

The difference between pro and amateur film is one of contrast. Amateur film is built to a slightly higher contrast to allow for the flare of cheaper cameras and the desire for the consumer of gaudy bright color or contrasty images.

The pro wants accurate tone scale, color and long latitude with the ability to push. Pro film is designed with these in mind.

The optimum in both cases is achieved by heating the film in the presence of certain chemicals which sensitize the grains. Keeping is just a long term continuation of this process which causes speed and contrast to increase slowly to a point at which the film begins to fog. At that point, contrast and speed go down as fog continues to rise. Finally, the film is unusable.

That describes a general case.

PE

 

[Aggie]

Hi PE

I emailed John a few months ago a few times and did not receive a response.

Thanks
Ross

Now it comes out. Borgida, except for the one post you made previous to this one where you took me on, all have been to bash J&C/John. that is what is seen about you. There is no other background we can go by. You have no other experiences on apug but those posts. As to your assertions about more knowledge than me, again unfounded and it is you who does not know me and my experiences. Yet you can read about me fully from the posts here on apug. I do have a couple.

Lenny it is not displaced anger that I have, it seems that is deflecting what you are really about. You are the one angry you can't find what you want. You are demanding that there be a film exactly like you want. Yeah I would like a few discontinued films back as well, but I'm not going to brow beat a distributor over it. It is the manufacturers that should be asked why, not a distributor. That is like asking shoe sales man, why he doesn't have the exact color or style you want, when it is not made by the manufacturer. The end person in the sales schemes has no control over what is sent to them. They take from what is currently offered and that is their product. If you don't like it, don't buy it. Simple thing to do. If you want something that is not made, the old way was to make it yourself. I'm sure Ron is working on a formula that is not so ortho based. Hell you can get a wet plate camera and really do it all from scratch. There are options, but you only want to whine because one distributor doesn't have the kind of films you want.

This also makes you wonder why it is that John finally decided to manufacture his own films and papers. Is it not for this reason of having a better product? John is putting his money where his mouth is and stepping up to do something about this problem. I applaud a person who has the guts (balls) to do this.

In the end Borgida and Lenny, you two have an option. You could stop your whinning and do something like learn to make your own films, or learn how to handle the current films. Others have overcome their problems with the films. It takes experimenting and trying different development times and methods. Which even someone like me who you think has no experience, has done, and can handle them. If I can do it being so innept as your trying to make me out to be, surely you could too. Whinning like this doesn't even go well with Cheese and crusty bread. Try Napa Valley for a good wine.

 

[lenny]

You are demanding that there be a film exactly like you want. Yeah I would like a few discontinued films back as well, but I'm not going to brow beat a distributor over it. It is the manufacturers that should be asked why, not a distributor.
In the end Borgida and Lenny, you two have an option. You could stop your whinning and do something like learn to make your own films, or learn how to handle the current films. Others have overcome their problems with the films. It takes experimenting and trying different development times and methods. Which even someone like me who you think has no experience, has done, and can handle them. If I can do it being so innept as your trying to make me out to be, surely you could too. Whinning like this doesn't even go well with Cheese and crusty bread. Try Napa Valley for a good wine.

Aggie, I repeat. You're an idiot. You don't know what you are talking about. And you don't know who you are talking to - or what their experience is - or isn't. You're just out to bad-mouth everyone. I have done enough testing on film and developer combinations to know exactly what different films are capable of. I even came up with a new developer to address some of the TGrained lack of sensitivity. I don't know near as much probably as that fellow from Rochester who says he can make film in his lab. I wish I did. I know a fair amount about photochemistry, however, and have been misixing and testing my own stuff for 30 years. I have printed in platinum and a whole pile of other alternative processes, including for Avedon at one time. I am now mixing my own custom inksets for black and white printing on wide format printers. I am one of a few who knows how to do this. I know my stuff. This is not about whining.

Attacking Ross is a waste of time as well. He just made a substantial investment in film - buying his own drum scanner - and he sees the results directly. He has no affiliation with any company, Freestyle or otherwise, and to suggest so is just to be argumentative and rude.

Suggesting I make my own film is ridiculous, as it fairly technical stuff, and requires a fair amount of equipment. I wouldn't mind if I could buy some kit to do it and get consistent results. Maybe someone will make one. However, another poster suggested that film for the larger companies is much more stable batch to batch. Thiis part I agree with - and it's terrific. Unfortunately, they have decided to make film that doesn't match up to films of yesteryear. As a group I think we all ought to take them to task and ask them to manufacture better film. Then we might get some...

I understand a little more about the factory in Croatia. They apparently don't have the equipment to properly make film either, like air conditioning... or the desire. I just wonder whow they got it right last year.

It owuld be ncie if they could do it agian. FWIW, I like John. He's benn straight with me. I think the folks in Croatia ought to get their act together. I think they are just not that intersted in exacting specs enough to make it happen. It's too bad...

 

[Dave Parker]

Suggesting I make my own film is ridiculous, as it fairly technical stuff, and requires a fair amount of equipment. I wouldn't mind if I could buy some kit to do it and get consistent results. Maybe someone will make one.

As I remember based on a conversation I had a couple of months ago, not to far from me, that may be being worked on as I type this message...

Dave

 

[Photo Engineer]

A kit for making film in the style of the 40s is possible and is being worked on. Dave is correct. The film can be reproduced, and will have a speed between 25 and 50 and be ortho sensitive. There are several problems to overcome including chemical supply and film support supply.

It is easy to do in the average home darkroom with a minimum invenstment, but it is like learning to paint a picture. You don't just walk in and do it, you have to practice doing it until you have it down pat. Denise has done a lot in this regard. See her web site.

As for the factory in Croatia. It is fine, just old. The emulsion formulas are many that we know and love, but due to the age of the factory, quality sometimes seems to vary. But, I see more happy people out there than unhappy people if you look at overall posts regarding these films, so I think that you are seeing the outlier that is not perfect, rather than the norm.

PE

 

[lenny]

A kit for making film in the style of the 40s is possible and is being worked on. Dave is correct. The film can be reproduced, and will have a speed between 25 and 50 and be ortho sensitive. There are several problems to overcome including chemical supply and film support supply.

Very exciting...

It is easy to do in the average home darkroom with a minimum invenstment, but it is like learning to paint a picture. You don't just walk in and do it, you have to practice doing it until you have it down pat. Denise has done a lot in this regard. See her web site.

I don't know Denise - perhpas you could forward me her url, offline is fine. I'd like to know more... I'm not against trying it... I've had to learn everything else, why not this, I suppose...

As for the factory in Croatia. It is fine, just old. -snip- I think that you are seeing the outlier that is not perfect, rather than the norm.

PE

That would be really nice. Any ideas on where to get the good stuff - jandc? freestyle? batches? anyone?

 

[removed account4]

lenny

i had several conversations years ago with a retired chemist. he used to do all the testing for photo lab index-- for 50 years ... and he was the guy that tested all the films, paper and chemistry. anyhow, he said that nowadays emulsion is filled with "poly vinyl fillers" instead of silver and sugested that is why things aren't like they "used to be".

the lack of silver and excess of fillers is kind of like sawdust filled hot dog ..

 

[Photo Engineer]

The URL of Denise Ross is posted elsewhere by me. She has also referred to it in her posts.

I cannot recommend a specific film or company producing it. I use Kodak, Ilford and Fuji products myself. I prefer the best and I don't think that I'm wrong in those three choices.

Fillers are present in film, but not to any great extent for the following reasons:

1. They don't chill set like gelatin and are therefore harder to coat.

2. They don't harden, and are therefore contributors to swell (sometimes desirable for better silver development and darker blacks as well as faster development)

3. Most of them are more expensive than gelatin.

So, they are there but at a very low level. Just enough to do the job.

PE

 

[lenny]

lenny

i had several conversations years ago with a retired chemist. he used to do all the testing for photo lab index-- for 50 years ... and he was the guy that tested all the films, paper and chemistry. anyhow, he said that nowadays emulsion is filled with "poly vinyl fillers" instead of silver and sugested that is why things aren't like they "used to be".

the lack of silver and excess of fillers is kind of like sawdust filled hot dog ..

Well, if this is true, as I always suspected, then the only other option is to let Ilford and Fuji know we want something different. (I don't think Kodak gives a damn about anyone, and never did.) I would be very happy to pay a premium for the real stuff. (100% beef film?) ;-) If you look at the success of Photo Formulary, I suspect that others would, too.

I already pay a premium for a lot of other thing,s and if I could get the results I used to. Anyone know who to talk to?

Lenny

 

[Aggie]

LOL, call me an idiot for suggesting you make your own, then turn around and discuss it with others. Real bright move. Finally you are actually talking about who the real culprit is in all of this, the manufacturers. Nice to see you can be led to it. YES it would be good to talk to the manufacturers, but you will find that they have a bottom line to their business, and they are not putting resources into film like they use to. Like you they are into printers, and inks. Now bash me again, and talk to the guys about the exact same thing I just said. That the manufacturers will not spend much more on R&D

 

[lenny]

LOL, call me an idiot for suggesting you make your own, then turn around and discuss it with others. Real bright move.

I am not interested in a bash fest. I was upset with you not for suggesting I make my own film, but for attacking both Ross and myself as whiners and trolls, suggesting we had something to do with bashing John. There is real frustration here. You didn't listen to what was being said. You weren't allowing the possibility that the both of us actually knew what we were doing. You made it personal, took it to a level which distratcted from the issue. Which was - where and how can we get film like the film Efke was making early last year, what happened, etc.

Lenny

 

[Ole]

Too much bashing already!

I think I would have nipped this in the bud, if I could only find out where the bud is...