What is a "giclée" print ... really?

Protest.

A
Protest.

  • 9
  • 4
  • 231
Window

A
Window

  • 6
  • 0
  • 115
_DSC3444B.JPG

D
_DSC3444B.JPG

  • 0
  • 1
  • 119

Forum statistics

Threads
197,229
Messages
2,755,978
Members
99,430
Latest member
Hedd-wyn
Recent bookmarks
0
Joined
Nov 3, 2024
Messages
143
Location
Vic/QLD rota
Format
Multi Format
My understanding is that there is more high volume use of RA4 in the volume printers in the EU.
When the scale is like that, RA4 is very economical. That is the biggest reason it is still around.

Interesting if that is the case in the EU, especially the mention of it being economical.
Small volume, infrequent use is the enemy of RA-4 printers, and has contributed to their eventual downfall here in Australia, as artist-photographers/photographers proper were shifted somewhat surreptitiously (prod, prod, poke, poke) to the cheaper option (as it was then!) of glicée. Hello? It is not so cheap now, and it can be considerably more expensive than RA-4 of equivalent sizes.

Electricity costs were another factor. It was often cited to me that the printers (two) could only be set to to work overnight when reduced power tariffs were effective. It was still pretty darned expensive.
 

MattKing

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
51,761
Location
Delta, BC Canada
Format
Medium Format

wiltw

Subscriber
Joined
Oct 4, 2008
Messages
6,354
Location
SF Bay area
Format
Multi Format
Yes. The market is vanishingly small and diminishing.

...
Of digitally produced RA-4s, the photograph is scanned (mostly drum scanning now). Sized and profiled, proofed and viewed, profiled then to printer. Then saved as a tif (150dpi), send to the chemically-dunked RA-4 printer and printed on (what was predominantly used as a rav-fav) to Kodak Endura Professional metallic, lustre, pearl or matte media (Fuji CA was sometimes requested, though I didn't fancy it).

But what I sent for printing were electronically transmitted JPG files which I created from RAW files generated by Canon dSLR. Not printing scanned images from negatives resulting from a roll of film which I sent in.
I used to be able to pick up prints one hour after submitting the JPG; unfortunately Costco got rid of in-house machines, so rapid turn-around was gone.
 

koraks

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
Messages
20,350
Location
Europe
Format
Multi Format
You cannot compare the throughput of offset printing - which is light speed - to inkjet - which is closer to donkey speed.


Mind you, that video is 8 years old; speeds are evidently going up. And yes, that's inkjet. IDK what the resolution on that one was; I think it that particular technology was 1200dpi right from the start some 11-12 years ago.

Soup can labels of course will be way at the bottom of the list of things that'll be replaced. But they'll get there; keep in mind that as soon as someone figures out it'd be nice to have individualized content on something a silly as a soup can (and yes, it will get to that, sooner or later), offset's going to be done and over with. There's of course a slew of applications that will precede this.
Oh, well - there you go.

Of course, offset printing has been evolving since the late 1800s. High-volume production inkjet only got serious about a decade ago. The 'blitzkrieg' reference wasn't such a hyperbole at all. It's moving at roughly an order of magnitude faster in terms of innovation rate. That's BIG.


Interesting if that is the case in the EU, especially the mention of it being economical.
The only reason why RA4 is still around is because it's still cost-competitive at this moment. This advantages erodes away since inkjet still has potential for further cost down and increase in productivity, while RA4 is pretty much a squeezed out lemon. This is why you see RA4 manufacturing volumes drop a little year over year while the global printing market grows.
 
Last edited:
OP
OP

ChrisGalway

Subscriber
Joined
Feb 24, 2022
Messages
292
Location
Ireland
Format
Medium Format
With the progressive dying out of machine-based RA-4 printing, giclée prints are what we are pretty much stuck with in the post-Ilfochrome Classic era. Casting a critical eye, I regard the printing (despite the wider gamut availability) as inferior to both Ilfochrome Classic (in a very big way!) and inferior again to RA-4. The only 'advantage' to giclée is easy and fast profiling variability and especially, repeatability of a set objective, on not just one but myriad different media finishes. Archival stability is not as good as Ilfochrome Classic, but likely on par with the best RA-4 prints (60-80 years). It is curious that the cost of giclée is now rising, as too, the media specifically designed for it.



The pro-level lab Canon — not a Pixma — I have my printing made on has 24 inks and able to run off 3 print jobs simultaneously. Their two RA-4 machines went to the tip in late 2022 when repair/reconditioning proved uneconomical/unviable with no spares available.
But yes, your Pixma can be described as giclée; being a French word it is not in wide English use outside knowledgeable circles; that is, not particularly in a supermarket that sells pillows, mince meat and batteries. Mention giclée in an office supplier for example, and you'll likely get a stunned mullet expression. People — mums, dads and kids, say what first comes to mind — "have you got any good inkjet printers I can look at?".

Taylor, thanks for this detailed and clear response. I'm getting the idea.

I know my own prints made on the 8 (dye) ink Pixma Pro 200 might not be the "best" and I have no intention of calling them "giclée" ! But they are pretty good, better than I (emphasis here on I) could do with the RA4 process and cheaper than getting a real "pro" print from a good lab (I would need to find a good lab, not easy in West of Ireland).

I remember Cibachrome from my younger days, definitely a high point in photographic prints.

Probably the best thing I could do (I'm sure I'm not alone) is to calibrate my monitor/printer, use the proper print profiles for each paper, and experiment with different papers. I know I should but my current default-setting prints on Ilford Galerie Smooth Gloss and Smooth Pearl look pretty good to me.

On the archival issue, I found some colour prints I made 61/62 years ago (no typo, sixty+) on Kodak paper, can't remember the process name but I do remember having to heat the whole room to 24deg, and they haven't obviously faded or changed over that time! They look as unsaturated and wishy-washy colours as they always were!
 
  • koraks
  • koraks
  • Deleted
  • Reason: Pointless
  • Don_ih
  • Don_ih
  • Deleted
  • Reason: Pointless
  • koraks
  • koraks
  • Deleted
  • Reason: Pointless
  • Don_ih
  • Don_ih
  • Deleted
  • Reason: Pointless
  • koraks
  • koraks
  • Deleted
  • Reason: Pointless
  • Don_ih
  • Don_ih
  • Deleted
  • Reason: Pointless

foc

Subscriber
Joined
Jun 30, 2010
Messages
2,499
Location
Sligo, Ireland
Format
35mm
Back in 2018, I investigated the cost involved in changing my print minilab Frontier RA4 to a Frontier drylab (inkjet).

At the time, the material cost per print 6x4inch/10x15cm was RA4 €0.05 and Fuji inkjet (paper & ink) €0.15

There was a big saving in electricity consumption with a drylab. The Frontier RA4 in full running mode was 7kW, the Frontier dry lab (2 in tandem) was 2kW.
The reason for the big difference was the RA4 print dryer, it alone was 4kW.

I am sure the material price gap now (2025) is much smaller.
 

MattKing

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
51,761
Location
Delta, BC Canada
Format
Medium Format
Back in 2018, I investigated the cost involved in changing my print minilab Frontier RA4 to a Frontier drylab (inkjet).

At the time, the material cost per print 6x4inch/10x15cm was RA4 €0.05 and Fuji inkjet (paper & ink) €0.15

There was a big saving in electricity consumption with a drylab. The Frontier RA4 in full running mode was 7kW, the Frontier dry lab (2 in tandem) was 2kW.
The reason for the big difference was the RA4 print dryer, it alone was 4kW.

I am sure the material price gap now (2025) is much smaller.

I remember talking to a lab owner who went through the same analysis back about then, and ended up replacing his digital RA4 minilab printer with an inkjet based minilab printer.
In the first year he saved a lot on electricity. Unfortunately, the savings were dwarfed by the cost of software updates and service calls on the new inkjet miniprinter.
He closed the lab and associated retail store a couple of years later.
His was a long time local independent business. He had a large amount of printing business with the RA4 machine because the quality was excellent - particularly the enlargements - and the pricing was great. The enlargements from the digital machine didn't impress me particularly, despite the associated "wider gamut" promises.
 
Joined
Nov 3, 2024
Messages
143
Location
Vic/QLD rota
Format
Multi Format
Probably the best thing I could do (I'm sure I'm not alone) is to calibrate my monitor/printer, use the proper print profiles for each paper, and experiment with different papers. I know I should but my current default-setting prints on Ilford Galerie Smooth Gloss and Smooth Pearl look pretty good to me.

In a very simple, straightforward approach (and this is what I do when pressed for time): if you're on a Windows PC, sRGB profile for viewing and printing (proofing); of it's a Mac, AdobeRGB. Differences between these two are not immediately evident on a screen (especially an uncalibrated monitor/laptop), but the differences will be meaningful to the printer! Profiles and calibration and print metrics...very much a "let's head down the rabbit hole" sort of topic!!

The printer you have may have profiles on the CD or the .zip files used to install it; otherwise ICC profiles for proofing and printing can be obtained from ICC organisation, or through a third party program e.g. GIMP. They can also be installed from either Windows or Mac machines (usually through the system area ==> monitor/colour setup portals.
Colour prints of yore do have staying power. We've got a few on Ilford colour paper from my Dad's discharge from the Australian Army in 1945.
 
Joined
Nov 3, 2024
Messages
143
Location
Vic/QLD rota
Format
Multi Format
The enlargements from the digital machine didn't impress me particularly, despite the associated "wider gamut" promises.


My feelings exactly.
 
OP
OP

ChrisGalway

Subscriber
Joined
Feb 24, 2022
Messages
292
Location
Ireland
Format
Medium Format
In a very simple, straightforward approach (and this is what I do when pressed for time): if you're on a Windows PC, sRGB profile for viewing and printing (proofing); of it's a Mac, AdobeRGB. Differences between these two are not immediately evident on a screen (especially an uncalibrated monitor/laptop), but the differences will be meaningful to the printer! Profiles and calibration and print metrics...very much a "let's head down the rabbit hole" sort of topic!!

The printer you have may have profiles on the CD or the .zip files used to install it; otherwise ICC profiles for proofing and printing can be obtained from ICC organisation, or through a third party program e.g. GIMP. They can also be installed from either Windows or Mac machines (usually through the system area ==> monitor/colour setup portals.
Colour prints of yore do have staying power. We've got a few on Ilford colour paper from my Dad's discharge from the Australian Army in 1945.

Thanks Taylor!
 

MattKing

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
51,761
Location
Delta, BC Canada
Format
Medium Format
My feelings exactly.

FWIW, based on what I've observed in the years since, I expect with a lot of re-learning - both for me and the lab people - I could probably obtain now prints that satisfy me just about as much as the RA4 prints satisfied me back then. But it would have required a lot of tweaking in order to be able to emulate the characteristics of RA4 prints I most appreciate. And those characteristics seem rarely favoured by the majority of colour print customers now.
 
Joined
Nov 3, 2024
Messages
143
Location
Vic/QLD rota
Format
Multi Format
FWIW, based on what I've observed in the years since, I expect with a lot of re-learning - both for me and the lab people - I could probably obtain now prints that satisfy me just about as much as the RA4 prints satisfied me back then. But it would have required a lot of tweaking in order to be able to emulate the characteristics of RA4 prints I most appreciate. And those characteristics seem rarely favoured by the majority of colour print customers now.



Behind me are two prints that were produced on the big Canon in the lab in a previous post mentioned.
The print I feel has the most appeal visually is that on Ilford Galerie Crystal Gloss. This has a much lower sheen to it than Kodak's famed lustrous [RA-4] Endura Professional Metallic media, but it is appealing. Six media finishes were presented to me for assessment (print-profiled and output to full finished size), with the Ilford Galerie Crystal Gloss the chosen print to go off to the frame shop (framed with non-reflective glass) later this year. A couple on Hahnemühle satin art media have very strong, crisp, vibrant colours, but I have always preferred the glossy finish — a hangover if you will, of the many joyful years of printing and displaying Ilfochrome Classic.
 

albireo

Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2017
Messages
1,232
Location
Europe
Format
Multi Format
used by the pretentious

Yeah, this. It's just an attempt at snobbery.

It's like the film veterans scanning their darkroom prints, sharing them on Facebook and going

"SILVER GELATINE print"

To distinguish themselves from the lowly plebs doing impure inkjet printing.
 
Last edited:

Don_ih

Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2021
Messages
7,260
Location
Ontario
Format
35mm RF
Yeah, this. It's just an attempt at snobbery.

It's like the film veterans scanning their darkroom prints, sharing them on Facebook and going

"SILVER GELATINE print"

To distinguish themselves from the lowly plebs doing impure inkjet printing.

Is that why they do that? Are you saying people are not entitled to take pride in what they do?

I do think some people use the giclee term as a bit of pretense. But I also think it was felt to be a necessary distinction to overcome the implied lack of quality that "inkjet printer" suggested at the time it was coined. "Computer printer" at that time still largely brought to mind dot matrix. They needed to try to make people think the print was worth something and not just fit for the recycling bin. (Well, garbage bin at that time - there wasn't much recycling, at least around here.)
 

albireo

Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2017
Messages
1,232
Location
Europe
Format
Multi Format
Is that why they do that? Are you saying people are not entitled to take pride in what they do?

Everyone is entitled to take pride in what they do, whether they like to print 'glicee' or 'silver gelatine'.

I just commented the above for fairness towards both groups.
 

Rockaway Studios

Subscriber
Joined
May 5, 2021
Messages
40
Location
Pacifica, CA
Format
Large Format Digital
Giclee= inkjet.
seriagraph = silkscreen

just that simple. Both Giclee and Seriagraph were terms invented to make pedestrian, accessible printing methodologies sound more specialized. After all, you can buy an inkjet printer at Walmart for $30 (never mind that the first cartridge set after the half filled starter carts will cost 4x as much as the printer did).

if you’ll excuse me, I need to finish creating these giclee prints of my 2024 Tax forms…

(kidding- I use a laser printer for office stuff…I don’t think anyone has come up with an artsy name for laser pirnting yet. How about “electrolithographic??”)

personally, I focus on the message, not the medium. my (not $29 at Walmart, with eye watering expensive ink carts) inkjet is a great tool, and yes, I describe the output as ”giclee” when selling in house prints, to differentiate the great care and process control used. It could also print my tax forms, but I prefer the strict tonality of the electrolithographic process for those. i farm large Format printts out to good commercial shops, just as I once farmed large chemical printing out to specialized labs. I don’t drill too far into the process the labs use, I evaluate the output quality.
 
Last edited:

foc

Subscriber
Joined
Jun 30, 2010
Messages
2,499
Location
Sligo, Ireland
Format
35mm
French sounding names always sounded sophisticated.

Think of contre-jour. Sounds more artsy than backlighting.
 
Photrio.com contains affiliate links to products. We may receive a commission for purchases made through these links.
To read our full affiliate disclosure statement please click Here.

PHOTRIO PARTNERS EQUALLY FUNDING OUR COMMUNITY:



Ilford ADOX Freestyle Photographic Stearman Press Weldon Color Lab Blue Moon Camera & Machine
Top Bottom