What is the current state and future of film availability especially 35mm?

[Henning Serger]

The fate of Fuji Arcos is uncertain, the last batch was made by Harman,

Paul, there is no uncertainty. Because:
1. Fujifilm keeps full control over the Acros II technology and the main, most important production process, done by Fujifilm themselves.
2. Fujifilm and Harman technology are meanwhile cooperating for decades in several areas and have a long-term contract for the production cooperation with Acros II.
3. Acros II is in regular production since its introduction; latest / recent production run this year.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[GaryFlorida]

And there you have it. We are all hanging by a thread. Unless Elon Musk gets seriously into film photography we are at the mercy of the whims and breezes of whatever is trendy by big media.

 

[Henning Serger]

And there you have it. We are all hanging by a thread. Unless Elon Musk gets seriously into film photography we are at the mercy of the whims and breezes of whatever is trendy by big media.

No. The photo film market today has about the size of 5% compared to its record all-time high in 2000/2001. It is a niche market compared to the former film era, but it can be sustainable in the long-term as such a niche market. And niche markets can exist and are existing for decades without being pushed by big media trends. Especially today when having access to information is so easy via internet.
And niche markets are often even more stable than bigger mass markets; for example don't forget that the digital camera market crashed and lost more than 93% of its volume since 2011.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Milpool]

And there you have it. We are all hanging by a thread. Unless Elon Musk gets seriously into film photography we are at the mercy of the whims and breezes of whatever is trendy by big media.

I think I’m sort of in your camp - the hanging by a thread part. I shoot 4x5 and 35mm and I’m always worried about EK film going away which would more or less be the end of film for me (or at least sheet film), and definitely the end of colour film for me - although I’m teetering on being priced out of colour film anyway.

I’m not currently set up for digital or inkjet printing so I also worry about B&W darkroom paper.

I guess to answer your original question, I think the current state of film is “ok”, the current state of darkroom is “passable”, and the future is “not ok”.

Hopefully I’m wrong.

 

[GregY]

And there you have it. We are all hanging by a thread. Unless Elon Musk gets seriously into film photography we are at the mercy of the whims and breezes of whatever is trendy by big media.

Gary, We're not hanging by a thread. There is more selection in B&W than we really need. There's still chemicals and paper. Pick a film & use it. Buy paper & print. Don't be a dabbler.... just do it

 

[pbromaghin]

It's been at about 28-29EUR for a while now (at least half a year).

But, yeah, lets check back in 2025 and see if the price is 35 EUR. I'd bet against it.

In the meantime, buy respooled Kodak 5294 for 20 EUR. You are helping the manufacturer of the film (EK) and sending a message to Alaris at the same time...

Or buy 400 feet/ 120 meters of 5294, respool it yourself and pay 7.50 Euros per roll. That's 80 rolls for the price of 20. It depends on how badly you want it.

 

[stevenjeong99]

As long as we keep up the film consumption and try to get others to get into film photography, film industry will still exist and even grow.. who knows I always try to persuade my camera buddies to try film photography and they usually fall in love with it once they try it.

 

[Angarian]

I think I’m sort of in your camp - the hanging by a thread part. I shoot 4x5 and 35mm and I’m always worried about EK film going away which would more or less be the end of film for me (or at least sheet film), and definitely the end of colour film for me -

Eastman Kodak had publicly announced some years ago (before the pandemic AFAIK) that they are hiring more than 300 new workers to increase the film production. At that time demand for photo film had already doubled (said Kodak), and for movie film it even more than doubled.
New investments in machinery had also be announced. Therefore it is extremely unlikely that EK will stop film production.

I’m not currently set up for digital or inkjet printing so I also worry about B&W darkroom paper.

Use it or loose it. Use it as much as you can, and introduce others to the joy of darkroom work. Best you can do.
Ilford and Foma have introduced new BW papers to the market. They would not had done that if they would have thought the market is not sustainable.

At the beginning of this century it was said "film is dead", and that around 2010 all film production would be shut down. But instead a film revival happened in the last years.
Film has survived the first digital revolution in the first decade of this century (digital cameras).
And after that it even survived the second digital revolution (smartphone photography) in the second decade.
Conclusion:
Film as a photographic medium is very robust. There are millions of photographers worldwide who keep it alive.

 

[cmacd123]

and also bow down to Christopher Nolan. Just the amount of 70mm 5383 that he causes to be used for IMAX prints of his movies, is proably as big in area as some of the smaller still film brands.

 

[Alex Benjamin]

we are at the mercy of the whims and breezes of whatever is trendy by big media

All 'em Joe Blows with their YouTube channel believing themselves to be film photography influencers are not, and will never be, "big media".

Also, let's not confuse things. Film photography may be trendy. Ilford was founded in 1879. It's 145 years old. Ilford is not "trendy".

 

[Milpool]

I don’t think the amount of Kodak film Christopher Nolan currently uses necessarily has very much to do with the future of EK film. It also has relatively little to do with EK B&W or colour still films, and sheet film.

 

[GaryFlorida]

Is it trendy? is it larping? or is it just old tech that is coming to a stop like an old bus pulling into the bus station on its last trip?

 

[Milpool]

All 'em Joe Blows with their YouTube channel believing themselves to be film photography influencers are not, and will never be, "big media".

Also, let's not confuse things. Film photography may be trendy. Ilford was founded in 1879. It's 145 years old. Ilford is not "trendy".

Ilford went bust, and the current Harman is engaging in trendy things.

 

[MattKing]

All of these discussions are skewed by a history where, not so long ago, Eastman Kodak was only one of several players, and they alone were manufacturing upwards of 70 master stock rolls a day of Kodacolor…each and every day – enough to make nearly 3.4 million spools each day.
It is very difficult to divorce our expectations from that sort of fairly recent experience.

 

[Alex Benjamin]

Ilford went bust

And look at it now. The fact, after everybody was saying that their core product was on the verge of extinction, that it managed to do such a spectacular recovery while keeping film as its core product should say something about the product itself.

the current Harman is engaging in trendy things

Every company does. It's a problem when the core product is doing so badly that you hope your trendy stuff will bring you much needed visibility and notoriety (generally doesn't work). It's not a problem if your core product is doing so well that you can afford to do trendy stuff to add to your notoriety and visibility without risking canibalizing core product sales.

One also shouldn't forget that strong companies can actually create trends — Nike being one of the best examples. Strong and bold companies actually influence the influencers, not the other way around.

Point is, without numbers, we know squat about what's going to happen with film. In such a matter, opinions are irrelevant. Either film is going well enough that it will last years, either it's not and we might as well throw all our beloved equipment in the garbage since it'll soon be useless. Only numbers can tell. The rest is either rose-glassed opionions or doom and gloom, both of which take us nowhere.

To me, only reasonable answer to OP is film is plenty available now, go out, buy some and enjoy yourself.

If insufficient and one really wants to know about the future, I'll offer this : film will officially die on June 5th, 2031. In the meantime, go out, buy some, and enjoy yourself .

 

[Alan Johnson]

It's not looking good for the future of microfilms, when supplies of CMS20 II and Spur DSX run out there seems to be left only continued production of low ISO films like Fuji Eterna RDS4791 and another made by Kodak which are for archiving movies.

 

[Milpool]

…we know squat about what's going to happen with film.

…In the meantime, go out, buy some, and enjoy yourself .

I think these are the relevant takeaways from this thread.

 

[GaryFlorida]

I used to love going in to walmart and buying a 5 pack of superia for 12 bucks or so IIRC? I still have a few rolls in the freezer. Then I would order a press kit c41. later on it was hit or miss at walmart if they had it instock or not. and the press kits couldnt be shipped because of chemicals? or some bs. So cant get the press kits anymore. Not sure where I will get a c41 kit now. havent looked but im sure the rules havent changed. Its like a concerted effort to get rid of film since AI cant edit film. They dont want any physical proof of documented events.

 

[brbo]

Buy C-41 powder kit from Cinestill.

 

[Agulliver]

And there you have it. We are all hanging by a thread. Unless Elon Musk gets seriously into film photography we are at the mercy of the whims and breezes of whatever is trendy by big media.

I am really unsure how anyone reaches that conclusion from the information in this thread.

Film isn't king any more and never will be again, but the industry long ago stabilised and has been growing for the last 8 years or so to the point where the remaining major players have increased production capacity and smaller players are coming into the market with entirely new products.

As for a concerted effort to kill film so there are no documents of events....that's conspiracy theory territory

Rules concerning ground and air transportation of chemicals have changed in most countries in recent years. Here in the UK I order chemicals for school laboratories and I have to jump through hoops and pay transport surcharges for stuff that used to simply be sent by a regular delivery service 10 years ago. Since the pandemic, the price of many raw chemicals has also skyrocketed before one takes transport into account. But there's no actual difficulty in obtaining film and processing chemicals. You must might not be able to use exactly the same channels you used a few years ago.

 

[GaryFlorida]

I mean events wont be able to be documented non digitally. Film is a irrefutable witness. Digital images and video are no longer trustworthy as reality. Am i serious? well half serious yes. Did you see the Running Man in the 80s? Lots of movies come true. AI is coming true. among many others. since the "pandemic" theres that word again, that magic word that makes everyone accept losing the things in life you love.

 

[DREW WILEY]

The invention of photography was proclaimed to be the doom of painting, especially if color photography ever became a reality. Well, it did; and here we are more than a century later, and there are art stores in every city still celling pigments, brushes, and canvas. Lots of people still ride horses too, simply because they enjoy doing that. What's in oversupply at the moment is unwarranted pessimism; I wouldn't mind if some of that runs out.

 

[Steven Lee]

@Henning Serger I always enjoy your posts because they tend to be full of optimism. But this thread is not one of them. Personally, I will lose access to color film as soon my stock of 400H depletes. I don't enjoy working with Kodak color films. And I no longer believe that Fuji will return to print film production. And now it looks that even the remaining films are at the mercy of Instax popularity. It’s like if the Louvre stayed open only as long as Justin Bieber remained popular — honestly, it’s pretty disheartening. :-(

 

[cmacd123]

I don’t think the amount of Kodak film Christopher Nolan currently uses necessarily has very much to do with the future of EK film. It also has relatively little to do with EK B&W or colour still films, and sheet film.

whele he opened his last movie in 100 IMAX theaters.so he needs 100Prints. 24 frames a second, time 120Minutes so

172800 frames each 15 perfs long and 70mm wide. each foot of film has 64 perfs.

so his order proably chews up 3 master rolls of 5383

does Alaris order that many master rolls of TRI_X?

 

[DREW WILEY]

Steven - what is your problem with the Kodak color negative film selection? Their current products are top notch. Is it just a price issue?