Who makes Arista Classic Graded FB?

[menglert]

Hello,

I'm interested in trying Kentmere Bromide graded FB paper. I saw that there is an Arista paper HERE. Does anyone know who makes (made) this paper? I was thinking it could be Agfa, or perhaps Kentmere Bromide.

Thanks,
Martin

 

[Jon Shiu]

Hi, I believe that would be "very similar" to Ilford Galerie.

Jon

 

[Simon R Galley]

Hi Jon / Martin,

As an FYI, the only box that ILFORD Galerie now appears in anywhere in the World...is an ILFORD Photo box.

With Kind Regards

Simon. ILFORD photo / HARMAN technology Limited

 

[Vaughn]

My best guess is that it is the last of Freestyle's stash of Ilford Gallerie from before the recent change of ownership of Ilford's paper and film manufactoring facilities.

Vaughn

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

If it is a current product, it MIGHT be Foma, as they are making a lot of the Arista film products. Foma makes some very nice VC papers, so this would be worth a try, especially at that price.

 

[Vaughn]

I'll have to disagree with you, FC,

When Freestyle could no longer get Ilford film and paper to market under "Arista", they changed the name a little (Arista.EDU, Arista II, etc) for each of their new sources of film and paper. So just plain "Arista" would more likely not be Foma...and when they sell out their stock of Arista, that will be it.

Vaughn

 

[CRhymer]

Call Freestyle

Hello,

I'm interested in trying Kentmere Bromide graded FB paper. I saw that there is an Arista paper HERE. Does anyone know who makes (made) this paper? I was thinking it could be Agfa, or perhaps Kentmere Bromide.

Thanks,
Martin

Hello Martin,

I believe it is the last of their Ilford. Call Freestyle, they are pretty candid about this.

Cheers,
Clarence

 

[PatTrent]

Hello,

I'm interested in trying Kentmere Bromide graded FB paper. I saw that there is an Arista paper HERE. Does anyone know who makes (made) this paper? I was thinking it could be Agfa, or perhaps Kentmere Bromide.

Thanks,
Martin

Having used some, it reminded me of the old Ilfobrome, which I loved.

 

[menglert]

Thanks for the input... After thinking about it some, I suspect it is old Ilford paper also. So I'll probably stay away from it.

Although, not because its Ilford, I'm sure its an excellent paper, but if I want to continue using it in the future, I don't think I can afford the prices of Ilford graded papers. Wish prices were more inline with Ilford VC, but I understand there probably isn't a lot of demand for graded papers, so prices must be higher.

I might check out the Kentmere Bromide graded.

Thanks,
Martin

 

[dancqu]

After thinking about it some,
I suspect it is old Ilford paper also. Martin

I'd take Mr. Galley's word for it. It is NOT Ilford.
My guess Kentmere. But Kentmere what, if any.
Made by Kentmere to Freestyle's specification?
Perhaps. If so it is an Arista Brand paper. Dan

 

[menglert]

I do take Mr. Galley's word on this issue. However, I also believe this is old rebranded Ilford. This has been in the clearance section of FreeStyle for some time now, thats what leads me to believe this. I'm sure that all new Ilford papers are only branded as Ilford as Mr. Galley stated.

Anyway, when I place my next order with them, I'll shoot them an email or give a call just to be sure. It would be nice if it were rebranded Kentmere, although I doubt it.

Regards,
Martin

 

[mcfactor]

Why would freestyle want to rebrand ilford paper as Arista? Why not just sell it as ilford?

 

[boyooso]

I'd take Mr. Galley's word for it. It is NOT Ilford.
My guess Kentmere. But Kentmere what, if any.
Made by Kentmere to Freestyle's specification?
Perhaps. If so it is an Arista Brand paper. Dan

My lawyer-eese is coming out...

Mr Galley doesn't say it isn't ilford paper... ne says it isn't "ILFORD galerie"

I'm NOT saying it is ilford, just reading carefully.

Corey

 

[Vaughn]

Why would freestyle want to rebrand ilford paper as Arista? Why not just sell it as ilford?

Because they could buy it cheap under contract with the old Ilford Company and sell it cheap to consumers. I use to buy their Arista 125 8x10 film (FP4) -- 25 sheets for 34 bucks or thereabouts. PhotoWarehouse use to do the same -- but I believe they called it UltraFine. These companies might have bought the products in rolls, and cut and packaged it themselves. That might account for some of the price differences...but this part is a guess.

I also use to buy Arista Classic -- and also Ilford Gallerie. I noticed no significant difference between them except for the price...except for one time the box of 50 shts of Grade 3 Classic behaved exactly like grade 2 Gallerie, so I assume there was a mix-up in the packaging somewhere. Maybe there was a bit of difference in the manufactoring of the two lables (Arista and Ilford), but I could not tell if there was.

The new makers of Ilford films and papers have not seen fit to make the same type of contracts with Freestyle and other companies. The original contracts seemed to include rules against telling anyone that the film and paper were actually Ilford -- it wasn't until the contracts were no longer valid (with the sale of the Ilford film and paper manufactoring facilities) that Freestyle came out and said on their website that the Arista brand was indeed Ilford products.

Why did the old Ilford company seemingly compete with itself? Perhaps because no one knew for sure at the time that Arista was actually Ilford, Ilford could sell to both markets (high-end products and budget products). Thus Ilford could sell the same product to those consumers that demanded a solid brand-name product (who believe high price = quality), while also selling the same product to those on a budget (good product for a cheap price) who could not afford Ilford's brand name products -- without risking losing either market. Clever, really.


Vaughn

 

[vet173]

I have not tried the paper in the thread but I have tried Kentmere Bromide paper and it is very nice. J&C nuance delivers an almost identical print tone wise for me. But they are not the same paper as they print different.

 

[swhitford]

I have recently printed with the Arista classic FB paper in both Gr 2 and 3, and done back to back (same printing session) comparison to fresh, recent Gr 2 and 3 Galerie.

The papers are VERY similar, but not identical. The only difference that I can see is that the paper base of the Arista paper is not as blindingly bright white as the recent Galerie. The speed, contrast, and color of the emulsion is dead nuts the same.

My conclusion is that the Arista is rebranded Galerie of a slightly earlier vintage. The (very) slightly warmer base might be due to aging, or it might simply be that a different base was used in the earlier Galerie. Maybe the optical brighteners fade over time??

BTW, the Arista paper does NOT appear to be fogged at all. As a matter of fact, the easiest way to see the diffence in the color of the base paper is to compare the backs of the prints.

In case Simon is listening (or if he cares), I also feel that Galerie is now priced above my comfort level. I simply find it over-the-top to pay more than $100USD for a 50-sheet box of 11x14 paper. I understand the need for a solid business plan in a contracting market, but at some point the pricing will contribute to the decline in sales and the whole thing implodes. For me at least, Galerie is at that point already. Just my $.02.

Scott

 

[Simon R Galley]

Dear Scott,

I do care...and you are certainly allowed your $.02 cents worth !

No doubt about it $ 100 is a lot of anybodies money, but the price truly reflects the cost of manufacture and yes we do make a profit on it, we have to, obviously. I consider it preferable that we keep the product in the range ( and charge accordingly ) rather than consolidate down to only variable contrast FB papers, especially as personally I consider it to be our finist paper.

Simon ILFORD photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

 

[Sal Santamaura]

...I consider it preferable that we keep the product in the range ( and charge accordingly ) rather than consolidate down to only variable contrast FB papers, especially as personally I consider it to be our finist paper...

I completely agree with both points.

 

[Paul Sorensen]

In case Simon is listening (or if he cares), I also feel that Galerie is now priced above my comfort level. I simply find it over-the-top to pay more than $100USD for a 50-sheet box of 11x14 paper. I understand the need for a solid business plan in a contracting market, but at some point the pricing will contribute to the decline in sales and the whole thing implodes. For me at least, Galerie is at that point already. Just my $.02.

Scott

Scott,

I understand your cost issue. I use far less Ilford than I want, mostly because I have been buying Forte rebranded paper that I really like for a lot less money. Of course, now I have to find a new paper because apparently Forte didn't have a viable business model.

Of course Ilford has their own interests in mind with their pricing, but if you think about it, with the current shrinking market and financial difficulties facing traditional producers, their best interest mostly intersects with ours. If they fail because they try to hang on to the lower prices that they could offer when the market was larger, then none of us benefits. If they were to become a true monopoly, I would not be thrilled (and it is getting a little too close for comfort) but it would still be better than to risk losing them.

Remember, this isn't Exxon making windfall profits off of an ever larger oil market and ever higher prices, Ilford has committed themselves to a significantly smaller market for traditional products and they need to make money to continue.

Also, if you take a look at Simon's postings, he has been very helpful and straight forward with us, I think that he has earned a significant level of trust from us.

As for the issue with Arista Pro: I am about 100% sure that this is old rebranded Ilford. When Ilford reorganized they stopped selling to repackagers. I am guessing that the problem was that it didn't take long for bottom feeders like me to realize that it was Ilford that these folks were selling for less money. I am certain that it had the effect of cannibalizing their sales. When this happened, right around the time that Ilford reorganized, Freestyle announced a closeout of their arista pro line and they stated publicly that it was rebranded Ilford. Call them, I bet that they will let you know that indeed it is just that. Of course, it is pretty old product by now, so you need to take that into consideration.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

I agree that $100 for a 50 sheet box of 11x14 is a lot of money. I usually purchase the 10 sheet envelopes since I only print this size when someone orders or they go on display.
I really wish that Ilford would offer their graded papers in 10 sheet envelopes too, even if it is a higher per sheet cost. It makes the purchase more manageable.

- Thomas

 

[Simon R Galley]

Dear All,

It may be old stock....as has been suggested

Simon ILFORD photo / HARMAN technology

 

[dancqu]

I have not tried the paper in the thread but I have tried
Kentmere Bromide paper and it is very nice. J&C nuance
delivers an almost identical print tone wise for me. But
they are not the same paper as they print different.

From Freestyle: Nuance, Cachet Expo RF, and Fotokemika
Emaks K-888 are the same papers. Where is all that paper
coming from? Dan

 

[dancqu]

I simply find it over-the-top to pay more than
$100USD for a 50-sheet box of 11x14 paper.

Gallerie, Oriental, and Bergger all run about the same.
Bergger on anything more than 25 sheets is the most
expensive paper. Bergger only packs 25, whatever
the size.

Entry size 25 sheets of Ilford 8x10 runs $33 to $35.
That's $20 more than Slavich, Fotokemica, or
even Forte. Dan

 

[John Shriver]

As for why Ilford was selling their film and paper under other names, before their receivership, they had the problem of excess capacity. Their contract with the Labour Union called for a fixed minimal staffing level, which had come to be twice what they needed.

So, they would sell to private label sellers at prices lower than their average cost, but above the marginal cost of additional product (materials, electricity, but not labor). It was barely profitable on the margin, but it probably cost them sales in their primary branded business.

Now Ilford has staffing levels in line with their sales, and while that's sad for the folks who no longer work there, it's the only way the company can operate at a profit. It's also the only way anyone can have a job there.

 

[Tom Stanworth]

I cannot answer teh question, but can say Kentmere bromide is fantastic....like old Seagul graded. superb juicy neutral tones. only used a little but delicious. dont know if it liths well tho...