Wisdom of Buying a Leica M3

[Bill Burk]

I’d get Mel Parker-Jones to refurbish your SRT if she’s willing. She’s good at them and talks of quitting

 

[Richard Jepsen]

Bill, do you have an address. If you forced me to tell the truth my Minolta outfit produces just as nice images at my size enlargements as the Leica. The difference is in the size of the lenses and the user interface.

 

[Bill Burk]

I know her from Facebook; Learn Camera Repair group.

 

[chuckroast]

I looked at eBay and found 339 results for a M3 camera. The majority of these are in Japan with less than accurate condition ratings.

I’m in my last years of shooting and enlarging B&W film. I have the itch to try a M3 largely for the finder and classic design. I’ve owned several Ms

If I make a purchase I’m concern there will not be any demand when I end wet photography in 3 or 4 years.

Assuming demand will be weak what type of M3 would make sense to buy that retains value?

1. Average condition….90% of M3s fall into this category with a price range of $1200-1500 USD.
2. Excellent ++ to Mint -. Clean top plate, no finder issues, needs minor covering repair.
a. Within the #2 category a body with a CLA
b. An overhauled well executed matt black repaint body…..advantage is its overhauled. Cost goes up to $2,900.
c. A 1956-1957 DS transition (lower numbers and interesting story) or a SS.

My gut tells me the cleanest body with a fresh overhaul will have the highest demand. Who knows on the price.

I just went through this exercise because I've always wanted an M body to go along with my IIIf.

After a lot of reading and seeking counsel from experienced Leica folk, I decided on an M2, not an M3. For my purposes, the 35-50-90 bright lines of the M2 made more sense than the 50-90-135 of the M3. Another factor in my decision was not having to use googles or an external finder with a 35mm lens on an M2, which is my most used focal length when shooting 35mm film

I know people ooh and ahhh about the M3 finder and for good reason. But the M2 finder is no slouch and mine is bright with a very clear set of lines and focusing patch (thanks to the work of DAG I would assume).

Unless the seller can provide proof of recent CLA by one the experts (Sherry Krauter, YYE, or DAG) assume your old M body will require one. These run between $300-500. I had this done to my IIIf (by YYE) and, the M2 I just bought had proof of a DAG CLA within the past few months. These are
old machines and need maintenance, but when one the pros is done, it will run like new for many years (one would hope).

The problem with this is now I have M body-itis. I want an M4, an M5, and M6 .... maybe even an M3. I will buy none of them, but a boy can have dreams ...

P.S. Ye told me that he prefers the SS M3s to the DS models because the former require less maintenance than the latter.

 

[Richard Jepsen]

Unless the seller can provide proof of recent CLA by one the experts (Sherry Krauter, YYE, or DAG) assume your old M body will require one

This comment is spot on. A well cared for Leica can go decades without a CLA once its been through the hands of a good tech.

The .72 finder is the most flexible. I have a M5 and if I use a 35 focal length I tend to zone focus. I also have a magnifier to use on the M5 when using the 90/2.8. It works but not as elegant as using the 90 on a M3. With the way I use a 35/2 (zone focus) an aux finder would work.

I would likely sell the 35 and use the entire M3 finder to frame my 40. My Minolta 40/2 was purchased for $280 and is a fabulous lens rated between a 35/2 type 3 and 4. Come to think of it, I could avoid adding to gear by having the mint 35/2 fund the M3. Notice how to talk oneself into a purchase.

At this point its not what M3 production model had the best reliability but its the camera specific condition. Besides general appearance and snappy finder having new curtains a big plus.

 

[brbo]

This comment is spot on. A well cared for Leica can go decades without a CLA once its been through the hands of a good tech.

So why would it need a recent CLA if they can go decades without needing one?

Buy a camera from a seller with return policy, check out the camera and return it if it doesn't work properly...

BTW, do Sherry and Doug keep details of their work on the cameras and provide those upon request from 3rd parties?

 

[GregY]

So why would it need a recent CLA if they can go decades without needing one?

Buy a camera from a seller with return policy, check out the camera and return it if it doesn't work properly...

BTW, do Sherry and Doug keep details of their work on the cameras and provide those upon request from 3rd parties?

I would bet that Sherry and Don keep details of their work, but I can't imagine that they'd want the nightmare of spending their time dealing with 3rd party inquiries. They do provide invoices with their work, so it really is up to the owner to keep records of service that they're claiming.

 

[chuckroast]

So why would it need a recent CLA if they can go decades without needing one?

Buy a camera from a seller with return policy, check out the camera and return it if it doesn't work properly...

BTW, do Sherry and Doug keep details of their work on the cameras and provide those upon request from 3rd parties?

In my case, the person claiming to have just had the M2 CLAed sent me a picture of the invoice proving it so.

 

[Saganich]

Having an MP, M3 and M2 the googled 35mm are fine on the M2 and MP and great on the M3. To pair it down to an early 1957 M3, DR Summicron, and 35 Summicron with goggles is imho the perfect kit...

 

[GregY]

Having an MP, M3 and M2 the googled 35mm are fine on the M2 and MP and great on the M3. To pair it down to an early 1957 M3, DR Summicron, and 35 Summicron with goggles is imho the perfect kit...

The 35mm on a Leica has been my standard as long as i can remember. The overall bulk, weight and balance of the goggled lenses drove me to the perfect fit of the M2. But if you're a 50 user...the M3 makes sense

 

[250swb]

250, It's all a matter of personal preference. The M3 was made right up to 1966, so it is possible to find a little used one. Some users prefer fewer framelines (one of the key reasons i sold my MP). Apparently the OP has made the M3 his choice....and had previously owned/used others.
Having lived in Japan and also visited there afterwards....not every Leica or Leica lens has fungus.....no more so than Leicas in Florida or any coastal city in the UK. I've had very good experiences both buying online from Japanese sellers & in person in Tokyo and certainly would not discount them.

You think coastal cities in the UK are prone to humidity? Other than the belief in a flat Earth which I know is shared in the conspiracy theory community the entirety of the UK is at much a higher latitude on the Earth compared with the USA, except for Alaska. So maybe that rules out the USA as a reliable source of used M3's? But as we know climate shouldn't be confused with weather and every region on the Earth has it's off day.

 

[GregY]

You think coastal cities in the UK are prone to humidity? Other than the belief in a flat Earth which I know is shared in the conspiracy theory community the entirety of the UK is at much a higher latitude on the Earth compared with the USA, except for Alaska. So maybe that rules out the USA as a reliable source of used M3's? But as we know climate shouldn't be confused with weather and every region on the Earth has it's off day.

One of the biggest reasons i don't discount Japan for used cameras is their incredible stock of different models especially Leica; much more choice than in either Avon or Anchorage. I've never been anywhere else where so many black paint Leicas can be purchased in a 20 minute walking radius.

As for humidity 250, as a mere visitor to both the UK and Japan....this is the info i found:

"What is the humidity in the UK summer?
The UK not only has a humid climate, but we also suffer from inclement weather. That can lead to all kinds of concerns in building such as garages. The average relative humidity can range from around 50-60 per cent in the spring and summer, to as high as 80-90 per cent in the colder months of autumn and winter."

"What is the average humidity in Tokyo
Toyko like most of East Asia tends to have low precipitation in the winter months and heavy precipitation in the summer, although Tokyo's climate is classified as “humid subtropic” but, it's not always humid, the humidity averages 51% in January to 75% in June.Aug 12, 2020"

 

[Richard Jepsen]

High humid areas….its how the camera is stored that matters. AC is common in North America since the 60s.

I chuckle when I search outside of the US and see an advertised mint camera but the description mentions mold/separation and/or the body is in average condition. Just look for Top Mint. I agree Japan has a wide selection of interesting cameras with many newer cameras in unused condition.

I could make a case that if one buys a M3/2/4 and the service history is unknown get it serviced by Don or Sherry. They will be retired shortly….and a future buyer may think a recent service by these techs worth a premium.

 

[GregY]

High humid areas….its how the camera is stored that matters. AC is common in North America since the 60s.

I chuckle when I search outside of the US and see an advertised mint camera but the description mentions mold/separation and/or the body is in average condition. Just look for Top Mint. I agree Japan has a wide selection of interesting cameras many of the newer cameras in unused condition.

I could make a case that if one buys a M3/2/4 and the service history is unknown get it serviced by Don or Sherry. They will be retired shortly….and a future buyer may think a recent service by these techs worth a premium.

A great idea, as those cameras are 60+ years old. The same goes for old Pentax or Nikons, they plug along, but a tune-up makes a lot of sense to get them to high performance. And.... you're right Don & Sherry won't be around forever.
The humidity question is an interesting one.... Many countries don't have AC throughout. That's true in Europe, but equally true of both coasts of Canada, as well as the US NW. With cameras half a century old or more, I suspect there are many other possible issues than mold....

 

[chuckroast]

High humid areas….its how the camera is stored that matters. AC is common in North America since the 60s.

I chuckle when I search outside of the US and see an advertised mint camera but the description mentions mold/separation and/or the body is in average condition. Just look for Top Mint. I agree Japan has a wide selection of interesting cameras many of the newer cameras in unused condition.

I could make a case that if one buys a M3/2/4 and the service history is unknown get it serviced by Don or Sherry. They will be retired shortly….and a future buyer may think a recent service by these techs worth a premium.

Don't forget Ye (YYE Camera) - he does fine work in my experience.

 

[Certain Exposures]

I bought my SS M3 about 50 yearls ago from Willy Schwartz, Camera VJew Central in NYC. (An old school Viennese camera dealer.)Even back then collectors were looking and paying more for low series numbers of DS M3s, Willy advised me to get SS. My SS version was much cheaper. Camera still going strong.
i would follow Sirius’ advice and get whatever you want in good condition. I’d worry about resale when time to sell. If memory serves me correctly, I believe I pair $156 for my used minty M3. Someone can calculate how much this is in this month’s dollars.

Buying cameras as an investment is not a good idea. Only buy a camera if you will use it and enjoy using it. There are much better places to invest ones money.

You might not get rich off one but at least you (probably) won't lose too much money. I have not ever used a Leica film camera. Maybe I should try one out someday since it's "basically" free!

 

[GregY]

Don't forget Ye (YYE Camera) - he does fine work in my experience.

We're very happy to have a tech close by in Calgary. Gary @ lensmedicyyc.... He's done work on both a Perkeo ii and a Leica for me!

 

[chuckroast]

View attachment 361041

You might not get rich off one but at least you (probably) won't lose too much money. I have not ever used a Leica film camera. Maybe I should try one out someday since it's "basically" free!

That's called the Money In/Money Out theory of camera buying. If you can get your money out after you've used it, it's a break even thing (accounting for inflation and time value of money).

Interestingly, one of the more common Money In/Money Out items is "owning" a home. Unless you happen to have bought in an area where prices are skyrocketing (San Francisco in the 1970s) or plummeting like a rock (Detroit, MI or Gary, IN), mostly, after a lifetime lived in a house, you get your money back after accounting for inflation, taxes, maintenance, and so forth.

 

[250swb]

One of the biggest reasons i don't discount Japan for used cameras is their incredible stock of different models especially Leica; much more choice than in either Avon or Anchorage. I've never been anywhere else where so many black paint Leicas can be purchased in a 20 minute walking radius.

As for humidity 250, as a mere visitor to both the UK and Japan....this is the info i found:

"What is the humidity in the UK summer?
The UK not only has a humid climate, but we also suffer from inclement weather. That can lead to all kinds of concerns in building such as garages. The average relative humidity can range from around 50-60 per cent in the spring and summer, to as high as 80-90 per cent in the colder months of autumn and winter."

"What is the average humidity in Tokyo
Toyko like most of East Asia tends to have low precipitation in the winter months and heavy precipitation in the summer, although Tokyo's climate is classified as “humid subtropic” but, it's not always humid, the humidity averages 51% in January to 75% in June.Aug 12, 2020"

Sorry, but it is climate that promotes humidity causing fungus, not weather. While humidity levels and temperatures can be very similar between Japan and the UK how the climate cycles is very different. For example, the UK does not have a warm monsoon season and has generally speaking comfortable Summers while Japan has hot muggy Summers with the odd typhoon thrown in. That's not to say storing your camera and lens in the garage or loft space is a good idea in the UK because these areas usually exhibit the most extremes in temperature and dampness.

I've bough plenty of lenses and cameras from Japan and not have any problems, but people need to be careful and look very, very closely at the photographs of the items and cross reference with the words plus other listings.

 

[Pieter12]

Sorry, but it is climate that promotes humidity causing fungus, not weather. While humidity levels and temperatures can be very similar between Japan and the UK how the climate cycles is very different. For example, the UK does not have a warm monsoon season and has generally speaking comfortable Summers while Japan has hot muggy Summers with the odd typhoon thrown in. That's not to say storing your camera and lens in the garage or loft space is a good idea in the UK because these areas usually exhibit the most extremes in temperature and dampness.

I've bough plenty of lenses and cameras from Japan and not have any problems, but people need to be careful and look very, very closely at the photographs of the items and cross reference with the words plus other listings.

How about how the camera is stored? In sealed container or a relatively open heated/cooled interior with adequate air circulation?

 

[Bill Burk]

P.S. Ye told me that he prefers the SS M3s to the DS models because the former require less maintenance than the latter.

I believe it. He told me he put SS M3 guts in my M2

 

[GregY]

I've bough plenty of lenses and cameras from Japan and not have any problems, but people need to be careful and look very, very closely at the photographs of the items and cross reference with the words plus other listings.

That's true of anyone's listings....

 

[davela]

The M3 is probably the best 35mm ever made IMO - it's the real deal, despite a lot of hype around it and some controversy. Leica raised the bar for quality and excellence with the M3, way back in the mid-1950's. I use a lot of other cameras too, and I am hardly a "Leicafile".

M3 prices go up and down, but they overall hold their value well and they are not going away nor is film. There are good Japanese sellers, but plenty are still sold here in the USA, and many are also sold in good shape. Leica M prices have moderated lately fortunately. I think you can find a very good single stroke for use from a US seller for around $1400-$1500 or so, sometimes with a fresh CLA. I'd consider buying on forums such as this or from reliable camera dealers that undersand these cameras like Roberts, National, Photo Pros, Tamarkin, Igors Camera's, etc. The double stroke models usually cost less, like maybe $1100-$1300 lately for a workng one in reasonably good shape. I actually prefer the double stroke M3 myself. The DS M3 is an earlier model, and IMO, have perceptibly better build quality. However we are talking the difference between great and amazingly great here.

 

[Richard Jepsen]

For no logical reason the transitional M3 with SS and buddha ears attract my interest. Those bodies have improvements and are a bit different.

Logically, a purchase criteria should ignore serial numbers with their configuration variations and focus on acquiring at the lowest price a body in the best visual condition, best finder condition, and recent CLA. Condition is more important than a serial number.

A concern is finder yellowing and separation. The M5 did not use Canadian balsam and likely post 1970 M4‘s avoided balsam as an adhesive.

 

[chuckroast]

So why would it need a recent CLA if they can go decades without needing one?

Buy a camera from a seller with return policy, check out the camera and return it if it doesn't work properly...

BTW, do Sherry and Doug keep details of their work on the cameras and provide those upon request from 3rd parties?

Because if you buy an M2 today, that has not been maintained, you're talking about a machine nearing 70 years in existence. It's guaranteed to need a CLA for best behavior.

People who have used the service of the Krauter, DAG, or YYE, get an invoice upon completion of work. This can be photographed or scaned as proof of service.