Wisdom of Buying a Leica M3

[GregY]

I’m circling back to the original question that started this post.

which M3 would be most desirable with an eye towards retaining its value.

Cameraworks-UK specializes in refurbishing M bodies and offers a repaint service. What are your thoughts on the positives or negatives of acquiring a UK repainted M3.

Of course an original black M3 is the most valuable. Modern repaints are a costly vanity job. If retaining value is on your priority list, the cleanest one you can find will retain its value. In any event Leicas have a history of retaining their value.

 

[warden]

I’m circling back to the original question that started this post.

which M3 would be most desirable with an eye towards retaining its value.

I think your original post has the answer:

1. Average condition….90% of M3s fall into this category with a price range of $1200-1500 USD.

 

[brbo]

Exactly, if you buy average condition for average going price (you can check sold items on eBay for a very close approximation for that), you are very unlikely to loose money in the next 5 - 10 years.

Leave 110% mint, never used, repaints… to people who know what they’re doing (or as some would say, those who don’t).

 

[chuckroast]

I recently got a very clean M2 that DAG had just CLAed last fall, for around $1200. It's not cosmetically perfect - a few dings here and there, and a really small chip in the vulcanite - but it runs perfectly and shoots great. Thanks to DAG the finder is clear and the brightlines are ... bright.

I am using this camera regularly and have every reason to believe I will get my full investment back when/if I decide to sell it.

 

[Richard Jepsen]

I found several serviced M3s with a clean top plate for $1600-1700.
There is a much larger selection of average condition bodies for $1300-1500. In fact the number is in the hundreds. Sales are slow.

Those average bodies don’t stand out. As a buyer you are taking a chance on the visual and mechanical condition.

I’m an active shooter and DR worker. But condition adds to the enjoyment. Additionally my experience selling a mint Rollei TLR and Bronica RF 645 outfit is exceptional condition gives a buyer confidence. I made quick sales at a fair price.

The repaints from Camerawork-UK look very good and run in the $2500 range. For that price the covering is replaced, the camera overhauled, and a classic but not common surface applied making the camera almost new.

When a repaint price is just $500 more than an excellent rated M3 it makes you think. My point is the camera is visually fully restored.

On the other hand who knows how good the paint finish is and if the camera got put back together right. Pictures tell a lot but also can be deceptive. Chrome is very durable.

Does anyone have any experience with Cameraworks-UK restored M3s?

 

[Richard Jepsen]

I rolled the dice. Every argument has its points for what M to purchase. I shoot with a M5 and would continue to recommend it as a buy because they are typically in excellent condition. The viewfinder and overhanging shutter dial the cats meow. If the meter is not working you have a non metered M and use an incident meter. Concerning a repaint if done right you get great visuals, a recovered body, the internal parts wrung out, and in this case a 6 month guarantee. Concerning resale, condition and price are everything.

 

[Kodachromeguy]

I rolled the dice. Every argument has its points for what M to purchase. I shoot with a M5 and would continue to recommend it as a buy because they are typically in excellent condition. The viewfinder and overhanging shutter dial the cats meow. If the meter is not working you have a non metered M and use an incident meter. Concerning a repaint if done right you get great visuals, a recovered body, the internal parts wrung out, and in this case a 6 month guarantee. Concerning resale, condition and price are everything.

What a beauty. Did you buy this one from Camerawork-UK? Now I am getting camera GAS.

 

[Richard Jepsen]

What a beauty. Did you buy this one from Camerawork-UK? Now I am getting camera GAS.

No, the seller is a firm in CapeTown South Africa. They had the work done by CameraWorks-UK. I’m the first owner after restoration. The seller has been responsive and is packing the CameraWorks invoice which accomplished restoration in areas I have never heard of.

 

[Richard Jepsen]

Leica 'M' Shutter Light Leaks AKA Shutter Opacity

This explains all about Leica M shutter light leaks.

www.cameraworks-uk.com

In researching CameraWorks-UK who repainted and serviced the camera I ran into this information.

1. The link explains shutter light leaks.

2. Informs me of the value of buying a camera with a recent quality service. The majority of Ms have not been used for decades. It seems evident there is value in having the viewfinder cleaned and old lubricants replaced while checking other adjustments.

 

[Bill Burk]

I would look for a pair of average “finish” bodies but look closely and avoid any with tool marks. Look for two that have never been opened even if they show signs of careful usage.

Send both for CLA asking for evaluation before proceeding and tell them your idea is for them to do a complete overhaul (down to removing/replacing the shutter roller lubricants) for just the one that’s never been touched by an amateur.

 

[Richard Jepsen]

Concerning if one should buy a camera recently serviced:

For me its worth the extra cost. I bought a M5 three years ago and it was out for nine months for a overhaul and battery compartment replacement. Plus I will sell the camera in 3-5 years and a good service avoids a buyer concern.

The purchased M3 had its shutter baffle removed and repainted, blush strips replaced and new friction disk installed. Besides the extensive cleaning/lubricating/adjusting the interior base plate was finished like the M5. Very detailed service work.

Concerning the purchase of an M3/2

My previous comments placed emphasis on visual condition and servicing. I want to add the condition (contrast) of the finder patch is perhaps most important.

The M3 purchase arrived and fortunately everything is in order. The finder is clean and has more than adequate contrast for outside use. Not surprising my M5 finder patch has higher contrast than the M3.

As a buyer without previous M3/2 ownership its hard to know what an M3/2 (better than average) finder brightness/contrast patch should look like. The M3 just purchased had the finder optics cleaned but no record of restoring the beam splitter which Cameraworks-UK offers. I’m left wondering if the finder could get closer to a M5 in contrast. That said when using it outside you immediately forget about comparisons because its similar enough to the M5.

Tradeoffs: I like the M5 as a shooter. The viewfinder size, info, and shutter control are fabulous. But the M3/2/4 size/shape feels right. The M3 .91 finder, though less flexible, fits my most used 50/40/90 optics. I print 5.25 by 7.5 inches on 8x10 and a 50mm focal length fills the frame giving small prints more presence.

 

[kl122002]

My Leica M3 is very early model , DS without viewfinder selector. It doesn't have any good looking because where it came from (scarp yard). Perhaps it is a too early version so there is nothing particularly impressing.... at the end it is another old camera on my shelf.

I like my M4 more than the M3. But then I decided to given up my M4 and move to Canon 7. That is another story.

 

[anthonym3]

I looked at eBay and found 339 results for a M3 camera. The majority of these are in Japan with less than accurate condition ratings.

I’m in my last years of shooting and enlarging B&W film. I have the itch to try a M3 largely for the finder and classic design. I’ve owned several Ms

If I make a purchase I’m concern there will not be any demand when I end wet photography in 3 or 4 years.

Assuming demand will be weak what type of M3 would make sense to buy that retains value?

1. Average condition….90% of M3s fall into this category with a price range of $1200-1500 USD.
2. Excellent ++ to Mint -. Clean top plate, no finder issues, needs minor covering repair.
a. Within the #2 category a body with a CLA
b. An overhauled well executed matt black repaint body…..advantage is its overhauled. Cost goes up to $2,900.
c. A 1956-1957 DS transition (lower numbers and interesting story) or a SS.

My gut tells me the cleanest body with a fresh overhaul will have the highest demand. Who knows on the price.

I have found that sellers in JAPAN often state MINT or NEAR MINT however in the fine print there are often refences to Lens has some haze, etc. ,camera has scratches wear from use. This is why I never bid on items from JAPAN. First shipping times are often long and returns equally so.

 

[chuckroast]

I rolled the dice. Every argument has its points for what M to purchase. I shoot with a M5 and would continue to recommend it as a buy because they are typically in excellent condition. The viewfinder and overhanging shutter dial the cats meow. If the meter is not working you have a non metered M and use an incident meter. Concerning a repaint if done right you get great visuals, a recovered body, the internal parts wrung out, and in this case a 6 month guarantee. Concerning resale, condition and price are everything.

Just coming back to this thread. I bought a really clean late serial number "Jubilee" M5 and just got it back from a DAG overhaul. It was on my bucket list since High School, when this camera first came out. I was just waiting for a good deal for the last 50 years

I fully agree with what you wrote here. It's a somewhat different experience than my M2, but it's a very good experience. It's ironic that the camera that nearly broke the back of Leica's camera business, is now enjoying a resurgence. Maybe they should re-release an M5-2 or M5-P ...

 

[Richard Jepsen]

Glad you are finding a M5 arguable the best shooter of all the Leica Ms. For sure it has the best shutter speed control. The larger viewfinder mask is also a best feature.

 

[chuckroast]

Glad you are finding a M5 arguable the best shooter of all the Leica Ms. For sure it has the best shutter speed control. The larger viewfinder mask is also a best feature.

Not sure that I'd say it's the "best shooter" because having had M2s, M3s, and M4s in my hand at one point or another, they are more alike than they are different. The M5 certainly benefits from a great finder, speed adjustment, and of course, the meter. But when I switch between the M5 and the M2 there is virtually no cognitive switch required. Even the IIIf isn't really that big a jump.

The much bigger jump is switching between Leicas and SLRs, or view cameras.

 

[Kodachromeguy]

Just coming back to this thread. I bought a really clean late serial number "Jubilee" M5 and just got it back from a DAG overhaul. It was on my bucket list since High School, when this camera first came out. I was just waiting for a good deal for the last 50 years

Hi Chuck, Is Don Goldberg able to overhaul the M5 and keep the meter operating? It was a brilliant mechanical/electrical system. I remember admiring the M5 in 1974 and '75.

 

[chuckroast]

Hi Chuck, Is Don Goldberg able to overhaul the M5 and keep the meter operating? It was a brilliant mechanical/electrical system. I remember admiring the M5 in 1974 and '75.

My meter is working flawlessly and is recalibrated for 1.5V batteries. The meter was working before the DAG CLA but he did the recal. I believe he does have parts for fixing bad M5 meters, but you'd have to ask him

 

[Army35mm]

I looked at eBay and found 339 results for a M3 camera. The majority of these are in Japan with less than accurate condition ratings.

I’m in my last years of shooting and enlarging B&W film. I have the itch to try a M3 largely for the finder and classic design. I’ve owned several Ms

If I make a purchase I’m concern there will not be any demand when I end wet photography in 3 or 4 years.

Assuming demand will be weak what type of M3 would make sense to buy that retains value?

1. Average condition….90% of M3s fall into this category with a price range of $1200-1500 USD.
2. Excellent ++ to Mint -. Clean top plate, no finder issues, needs minor covering repair.
a. Within the #2 category a body with a CLA
b. An overhauled well executed matt black repaint body…..advantage is its overhauled. Cost goes up to $2,900.
c. A 1956-1957 DS transition (lower numbers and interesting story) or a SS.

My gut tells me the cleanest body with a fresh overhaul will have the highest demand. Who knows on the price.

I bought a 1955 DS m3 in 2017 for about 450 USD. Average condition. It's a little more beat up now with maybe 1000 rolls through it. Same camera will easily fetch 900-1100 all day long today. don't worry about demand. It'll always be there for these cameras.

 

[summicron1]

my attitude about buying Leicas is to buy what you want, pay what it takes, and let your heirs worry about the resale value. I'm 75 and just bought a III-G. Already have an M2, 3 and 4. Plus a full-ish range of LTM.

But needed that III-G. And film ain't going anywhere -- Kodak is adding shifts to their film factory.

 

[Richard Jepsen]

Summicron, hope you are still printing in a DR. Shooting film without a DR is like owning a leash without the puppy.

Yes DAG has M5 parts and can replace the bat compartment and rebuild the meter. But, I have decided I get more consistent exposures using an incident meter. This is especially true if shooting B&W and enlarging in a DR. So now I’m not using the meter I paid to repair.

I would not let a bad meter prevent one from buying a M5. When they are recalibrated for higher 1.5 voltage the pointer tends to be jumpy. That hyper sensitivity is not there in lower intensity light levels. Not saying the meter is wrong at bright conditions…just moves faster.

 

[Richard Jepsen]

Concerning the recent M3 I purchased. After living with it I would prefer the finder contrast to match the M5. I discovered two small issues like a wider space on a negative frame every 5 frames and a bit of silver deterioration out of the line of sight when focusing. Since the camera came from CapeTown, Africa and the warranty in UK its not worth it for me to return for repairs. The painted body however is a beauty.

I have the means, motivation, and pickiness to consider replacing the finder with a M6J finder. I’m using the camera exclusively and the minor issues do not prevent usability. I like the .91 finder coupled with a small ergonomic Minolta CLE 40/2. When I am ok with more weight and it fits my need a KM Hex 50/2 is on it.

For general purpose photography I consider the frame-lines on the Leica CL as perfect. I prefer the higher mag finder so the M3 works pretty good. Using the .91 finder feels like a cross between a rangefinder and SLR viewfinder. I like it.

 

[Don_ih]

needed that III-G

I know the feeling. After a while, you start to feel like you're collecting the alphabet.

I'm trying my best to avoid thinking I need the I, the II, and the III of every letter....

 

[chuckroast]

Summicron, hope you are still printing in a DR. Shooting film without a DR is like owning a leash without the puppy.

Yes DAG has M5 parts and can replace the bat compartment and rebuild the meter. But, I have decided I get more consistent exposures using an incident meter. This is especially true if shooting B&W and enlarging in a DR. So now I’m not using the meter I paid to repair.

I would not let a bad meter prevent one from buying a M5. When they are recalibrated for higher 1.5 voltage the pointer tends to be jumpy. That hyper sensitivity is not there in lower intensity light levels. Not saying the meter is wrong at bright conditions…just moves faster.

I can't abide the idea of having a beautiful camera without a working meter if one is present. That said, I mostly use a spot meter anyway, go figure.

 

[chuckroast]

I know the feeling. After a while, you start to feel like you're collecting the alphabet.

I'm trying my best to avoid thinking I need the I, the II, and the III of every letter....

I think it's pretty much fair to say that we all passed "need" a long time ago. But, I figure it keeps me out of the bars and off the streets.