Wisdom of Buying a Leica M3

[cliveh]

You are aware the M3 came before the M2?

 

[guangong]

I can't abide the idea of having a beautiful camera without a working meter if one is present. That said, I mostly use a spot meter anyway, go figure.

The M5 meter is rather close to being a spot meter. I’m with you, preferring a fully operating camera when possible.

 

[Richard Jepsen]

Chuckroast

Do you enlarge negatives in a DR? Over the decades I fell into a highly refined workflow based on eliminating variables. I found even with experience I could experience uneven exposures. With an incident meter the exposures are often so even I can use the same enlarger/timing values on most of the subsequent negative frames. Using an incident meter does not mean you can’t dial in a custom exposure.

Reducing variations is the key to easy printing. It starts with image formation in camera through the DR process. One camera, same contrast lenses, one or two films, one enlarger, one projection lens, one print developer, only a few papers (Ilford WT and Deluxe RC) are a great match. Last, print every week, project base prints on 5x7 RC. You can standardize the f/stop factor to scale up the print if desired. Ilford‘s FB and RC have virtually the same speed so use your base print notes if wanting to print on FB.

The above is a departure from the subject but I’m passionate about analog printing. I don’t have time so I have to be efficient.

 

[summicron1]

Summicron, hope you are still printing in a DR. Shooting film without a DR is like owning a leash without the puppy.

Of course. The M3 and M4 and the Focomat I-C were created by God to produce prints and to do so anyway else would be blasphemy. But I do use a Leica CL (ca. 1975) for travel work. Have i really had that thing almost 50 years? Wow. Meter still works, too.

 

[chuckroast]

Chuckroast

Do you enlarge negatives in a DR? Over the decades I fell into a highly refined workflow based on eliminating variables. I found even with experience I could experience uneven exposures. With an incident meter the exposures are often so even I can use the same enlarger/timing values. Using an incident meter does not mean you can’t dial in a custom exposure.

Reducing variations is the key to easy printing. It starts with image formation in camera through the DR process. One camera, same contrast lenses, one or two films, one enlarger, one projection lens, one print developer, only a few papers (Ilford WT and Deluxe RC) are a great match. Last, print every week, project base prints on 5x7 RC. You can standardize the f/stop factor to scale up the print if desired. Ilford‘s FB and RC have virtually the same speed so use your base print notes if wanting to print on FB.

The above is a departure from the subject but I’m passionate about analog printing. I don’t have time so I have to be efficient.

That's ALL I do. I split VC print on fiber paper (Fombabrom Variant 111), as God himself has decreed ...

Well, that's not entirely true. I do scan film now and then to preview an image or share it with someone, but 99% of what I do means making wet prints.

 

[Richard Jepsen]

I would say your a serious DR rat. And you have a big trash can.
Nice DR. Mine is a dry and restricted in size. But its very efficient. I can reach everything needed from a seated position. I no longer make prints on paper larger than 8x10. If I did it would be single tray processing with the 3 chems set up 1 qt containers.

 

[eli griggs]

Buying cameras as an investment is not a good idea. Only buy a camera if you will use it and enjoy using it. There are much better places to invest ones money.

I agree, you are either buying a camera to use, carry, make it the focus of your budding kit.

{deleted by moderator - way too political for Photrio}

If you can set aside the resale issue, I think you can better decide if the M3ss or another Leica rangefinder is still so attractive.

You should also seriously take a decision on which lenses you will buy to put on that body.

"M" lenses are great but so are many LTM Leica lenses, plus Canon, Voigtlander, or the Japanese Sun 90mm and FSU lenses like I have, etc, LTM glass, is useable with the "M" series adapters and, like I wrote a few posts back, any viewfinder you chose made for M or LTM cameras and general lenses.

Of course, you may just be a collector, most of whom have arcane considerations.

 

[baachitraka]

rather important is finding a good shoes/boots to wear to have conversation with that or any camera during long walks...

stop worrying and get the camera that you wish to have, in a perfect working order

 

[chuckroast]

I would say your a serious DR rat. And you have a big trash can.
Nice DR. Mine is a dry and restricted in size. But its very efficient. I can reach everything needed from a seated position. I no longer make prints on paper larger than 8x10. If I did it would be single tray processing with the 3 chems set up 1 qt containers.

That trash can is typically used only when I print 16x20 (which isn't often).

 

[Richard Jepsen]

You should also seriously take a decision on which lenses you will buy to put on that body.

"M" lenses are great but so are many LTM Leica lenses, plus Canon, Voigtlander, or the Japanese Sun 90mm and FSU lenses like I have, etc, LTM glass, is useable with the "M" series adapters and, like I wrote a few posts back, any viewfinder you chose made for M or LTM cameras and general lenses.

Of course, you may just be a collector, most of whom have arcane considerations.

I’m a serious amateur with a degree in photography 1968.. I’ve been active in a DR for 25 years and 9 years teaching at a community DR. Not a collector but would like to come out even when I sell off the leica gear. I had the perfect leica, a MP, bought new for $2100. But like many I wanted to experience other models and frankly it was a bit of a strain to keep the MP perfect. It was LNIB when it sold in 2021 and I received top dollar.

I like the M3 .91 viewfinder. I print most images 5x7 so filling the frame works better. The Minolta 40/2 is very ergonomic on the M3. It is truly a bridge between those wanting a M2 to shoot a 35 and those wanting the M3 for its 50/90 frame where it excels.

The purpose of this post is to discuss the issues of buying a M3. I rolled the dice and found I like .91 viewfinder best of all the bodies but I have a camera with a minor issue and in the best world would like a crisper finder. Buying a body with top plate script and .85 finder is more expensive than my current set up. I enjoy the aesthetics of the top script which is frivolous but part of the charm.

Buying on line is necessary for most of us. We don’t have access to retail stores unless you travel to one. So you take your chances. I would not recommend buying outside of North America if living on this side of the pond. The Capetown seller came up on my filter and I failed to do good diligence to check out the address or storefront. That said, I ‘m only slightly disappointed and eventually will send the body off for an adjustment of the frame spacing so the next owner has a fault free camera. if I bought in country I would have used the sellers warranty.

I might point out a long time pro retailer in Indianapolis. Robert Camera. They seem to have a good selection of M bodies with a CLA and warranty.

 

[chuckroast]

You should also seriously take a decision on which lenses you will buy to put on that body.

"M" lenses are great but so are many LTM Leica lenses, plus Canon, Voigtlander, or the Japanese Sun 90mm and FSU lenses like I have, etc, LTM glass, is useable with the "M" series adapters and, like I wrote a few posts back, any viewfinder you chose made for M or LTM cameras and general lenses.

Of course, you may just be a collector, most of whom have arcane considerations.

I’m a serious amateur with a degree in photography 1968.. I’ve been active in a DR for 25 years and 9 years teaching at a community DR. Not a collector but would like to come out even when I sell off the leica gear. I had the perfect leica, a MP, bought new for $2100. But like many I wanted to experience other models and frankly it was a bit of a strain to keep the MP perfect. It was LNIB when it sold in 2021 and I received top dollar.

I like the M3 .91 viewfinder. I print most images 5x7 so filling the frame works better. The Minolta 40/2 is very ergonomic on the M3. It is truly a bridge between those wanting a M2 to shoot a 35 and those wanting the M3 for its 50/90 frame where it excels.

The purpose of this post is to discuss the issues of buying a M3. I rolled the dice and found I like .91 viewfinder best of all the bodies but I have a camera with a minor issue and in the best world would like a crisper finder. Buying a body with top plate script and .85 finder is more expensive than my current set up. I enjoy the aesthetics of the top script which is frivolous but part of the charm.

Buying on line is necessary for most of us. We don’t have access to retail stores unless you travel to one. So you take your chances. I would not recommend buying outside of North America if living on this side of the pond. The Capetown seller came up on my filter and I failed to do good diligence to check out the address or storefront. That said, I ‘m only slightly disappointed and eventually will send the body off for an adjustment of the frame spacing so the next owner has a fault free camera. if I bought in country I would have used the sellers warranty.

I might point out a long time pro retailer in Indianapolis. Robert Camera. They seem to have a good selection of M bodies with a CLA and warranty.

I am pretty much of the same mind. With rare exception, I have bought used equipment (even when new was still available) and emphasized functionality over visual perfection. I bought my M2 from a guy who'd just had DAG do a complete overhaul. It has couple of minor dings and a tiny piece of vulcanite missing, but it runs flawlessly.

I got lucky with my M5 which is cosmetically beautiful, with only a few very minor marks on the baseplate and - again - a tiny chip of vulcanite missing near one of the strap lugs. I had DAG overhaul it and now have a camera that should serve me the rest of my photographic life.

To me, there is something sort of spiritually satisfying about keeping old machinery running well, rather than buying the new shiny thing all the time. That may because I have old machinery myself ...

Can confirm that Roberts Camera in Indianapolis is a high quality vendor. The ratings on used stuff are fair and they take back stuff without a question.

 

[eli griggs]

I am pretty much of the same mind. With rare exception, I have bought used equipment (even when new was still available) and emphasized functionality over visual perfection. I bought my M2 from a guy who'd just had DAG do a complete overhaul. It has couple of minor dings and a tiny piece of vulcanite missing, but it runs flawlessly.

I got lucky with my M5 which is cosmetically beautiful, with only a few very minor marks on the baseplate and - again - a tiny chip of vulcanite missing near one of the strap lugs. I had DAG overhaul it and now have a camera that should serve me the rest of my photographic life.

To me, there is something sort of spiritually satisfying about keeping old machinery running well, rather than buying the new shiny thing all the time. That may because I have old machinery myself ...

Can confirm that Roberts Camera in Indianapolis is a high quality vendor. The ratings on used stuff are fair and they take back stuff without a question.

I like using new, but like you, I generally prefer an older piece of kit and to keep it in good kip.

Perhaps, regardless of where a camera or lens is from, we might distinguish our "sentiment" in this commonly expressed view point of keeping our analog cameras going as far as humanly possible, borrowing from Japanese culture, the inclination to repair items like ceramics, other things, and giving the repaired item pride of place by using (in place of gold powder) a finished, hand burnished surface treatment of real gold leaf.

Cracked lens cap, or broken plastic film advance level that's still functional, gold leaf over the repaired, ie glued area.

Replaced missing screw, make the screw head stand out r perhaps Zeiss "bumps", brass screw heads with heavy corrosion/verdigris, clean up that poisonous green patina and gold foil the repaired screw head, if visible.

The same thing can be done with battery doors, flash foot mounts, battery packs, repaired PC cords, dented filter rings, etc.

Since analog camera kit can last generations and some of us shoot cameras already about 100 years old, let's draw attention to our cameras by highlighting the durable nature of them and the fact that they need to be repaired rather than tossed, when possible, by using the "Gold" leafing as a signal to others that we can have a long history with these tools.

IMO.

 

[summicron1]

Since analog camera kit can last generations and some of us shoot cameras already about 100 years old, let's draw attention to our cameras by highlighting the durable nature of them and the fact that they need to be repaired rather than tossed, when possible, by using the "Gold" leafing as a signal to others that we can have a long history with these tools.

IMO.

I bought a very beat-up M4 half a dozen years ago or so because it was cheap-ish and because I could use it without worrying. Not sure what you mean by "gold leafing" but I just had Youxin Ye put $300 worth of his golden skills into it so it should last me for the next 20 years and since I'm 75 now, that should handle me for life.

 

[eli griggs]

I bought a very beat-up M4 half a dozen years ago or so because it was cheap-ish and because I could use it without worrying. Not sure what you mean by "gold leafing" but I just had Youxin Ye put $300 worth of his golden skills into it so it should last me for the next 20 years and since I'm 75 now, that should handle me for life.

Good leafing is simply the application of ultra thin gold guilding, sometimes in multiple layers, some time, a heavier 5"x5" or so sheet, for better wear resistance, ie on some of India's Temple Domes, etc.

Because it's metal and because it's going over most likely glued, or soldered metal or plastic but sometimes a 3# shellac, repairs, it should be somewhat resistance to rubbing of, especially if in areas that do not receive a lot of wear, in normal 'Real World' use or storage.

Like I wrote earlier, I suggest that it's a way to revered the working and repaired tools we love to our grave.

 

[Richard Jepsen]

That said, I ‘m only slightly disappointed and eventually will send the body off for an adjustment of the frame spacing so the next owner has a fault free camera.

hooray…it must have been my user error as no frame spacing issues on this roll.

 

[Pieter12]

I rolled the dice. Every argument has its points for what M to purchase. I shoot with a M5 and would continue to recommend it as a buy because they are typically in excellent condition. The viewfinder and overhanging shutter dial the cats meow. If the meter is not working you have a non metered M and use an incident meter. Concerning a repaint if done right you get great visuals, a recovered body, the internal parts wrung out, and in this case a 6 month guarantee. Concerning resale, condition and price are everything.

The black M5 is not painted, but black chrome.

 

[chuckroast]

That said, I ‘m only slightly disappointed and eventually will send the body off for an adjustment of the frame spacing so the next owner has a fault free camera.

hooray…it must have been my user error as no frame spacing issues on this roll.

I would suggest that this could be caused by camera disuse. I make a point to fire very camera/shutter I own at least at the highest and lowest speeds several times every few months. It helps keep things moving and avoids lubricant packing.

Unless you really messed up film loading, I cannot image a way for user error to account for bad interframe spacing.

 

[GregY]

The black M5 is not painted, but black chrome.

Pieter, although it's not made clear, RJ bought a repainted M3..... see post #81

 

[ph]

repairing and exercising cameras may make them last a hundred years, but availabiolity of film may not. I have a very decorative french Derlux which uses unavaiable film as well as an early Exakta with the same problem (but my Leicas can still be fed).

p.

 

[chuckroast]

repairing and exercising cameras may make them last a hundred years, but availabiolity of film may not. I have a very decorative french Derlux which uses unavaiable film as well as an early Exakta with the same problem (but my Leicas can still be fed).

p.

Agreed. I thus monitor my film consumption and replace it regularly, often buying slightly more than I've used. A freezer full exists precisely to extend my photographic sojourn should film ever be entirely unavailable.

That's seems unlikely for the moment. Film is actually somewhat of a growth business at the moment.
I am, however. making sure everything I own is well maintained and CLAed as needed. The people who do this well are in their late 60s and early 70s and will not be with us forever. Last year was the year of "let's maintain everything", so everything is functional and happy at this time.

Like all old/niche technologies. You'd think it would be a lot more expensive, but so far, not so.

In 1980, a roll of Tri-X 120 was on the order of $2.50 US. Inflation adjusted, that's about $9.50 US today. "Propacks" in those days had 20 rolls in them and this drove the per unit price down further. Today, B&H sells a 5 roll propack for $45 US or $9/roll which is pretty much a wash.

Somewhat OT: We tend to think of things as being super expensive these days, but most things actually are nearly the same, inflation adjusted. For example, gasoline was $0.31/gal in the US in 1960. In today's dollars that works out to be $3.27/gal - not remarkably different than current pricing. Similarly, the average new car in 1960 was $3400 in the US, which would be about $36,000 today - again, not remarkably different than current cars. And, the new car has leagues better engineering, better features, is safer, etc.

So when one of my fellow Boomers starts yelling at the clouds about things being too expensive, point them here:

U.S. Inflation Calculator: 1635→2025, Department of Labor data

This inflation calculator uses the official US consumer price index and breaks down inflation by spending category. Enter any year since 1635 to adjust for inflation, measure change in purchasing power, and more.

www.in2013dollars.com

 

[Kodachromeguy]

In 1980, a roll of Tri-X 120 was on the order of $2.50 US. Inflation adjusted, that's about $9.50 US today. "Propacks" in those days had 20 rolls in them and this drove the per unit price down further. Today, B&H sells a 5 roll propack for $45 US or $9/roll which is pretty much a wash.

Another thing to consider is most film users today are not high volume photographers. A few film wedding photographers may still shoot hundreds rapidly, but most are pretty discriminating. Contrast with DSLR users, who can shoot thousands on a weekend. In my opinion, film is not a budget breaker if this is the medium you feel helps you express your view of the world.

 

[GregY]

Another thing to consider is most film users today are not high volume photographers. A few film wedding photographers may still shoot hundreds rapidly, but most are pretty discriminating. Contrast with DSLR users, who can shoot thousands on a weekend. In my opinion, film is not a budget breaker if this is the medium you feel helps you express your view of the world.

Absolutely agree, & after working a lot with a 5x7" some of those habits transferred over to MF & 35mm.....

 

[Ian Grant]

Another thing to consider is most film users today are not high volume photographers. A few film wedding photographers may still shoot hundreds rapidly, but most are pretty discriminating. Contrast with DSLR users, who can shoot thousands on a weekend. In my opinion, film is not a budget breaker if this is the medium you feel helps you express your view of the world.

Absolutely agree, & after working a lot with a 5x7" some of those habits transferred over to MF & 35mm.....

I've owned a IIIa for over 50 years, first saw an M2 as a student, and realised I wanted an M series Leica, but needed to use SLRs for macro work and versatility shooting to my NUS newspaper. So it was years before I bought an M3 and I'd been shooting LF for 12 years.

The LF discipline informs working with smaller formats, it greatly reduces film wastage and massively improves the hit rate of successful images.

Friends who were ardent Leicaphiles said always buy from an credited Leitz dealers, so I did my M3 body from Manchester, and 50mm Summicron, Sheffield, when I had an issue with a cracked view finder window it went to Leitz in London for repair, their "expensive" quote included a mandatory CLA. I was surprised when they rang and said the cost was substantially lower, as they could see from their records it had had a recent enough CLA. I was amazed by their honesty.

Malcolm Taylor is or was the nearest Leica repairman to me, he does the restoration work for Leitz's own factory collection.

A Leica M3, 50mm Summicron, Agfa AP or APX 100, processed in Rodinal, a marriage made in heaven, lovely tonality, sharpness, and very fine grain. Kodak's Tmax 50 gave identical results, same development times, processed alongside the Agfa films. Of course Kodak never made a Tmax 50, it was Tmax 100 however their datasheets recommended shooting at hal box speed for better tinality, and they had the ASA testing metholody changed so Tmax 100 could be 100 ASA/ISo.

Ian

 

[eli griggs]

I've owned a IIIa for over 50 years, first saw an M2 as a student, and realised I wanted an M series Leica, but needed to use SLRs for macro work and versatility shooting to my NUS newspaper. So it was years before I bought an M3 and I'd been shooting LF for 12 years.

The LF discipline informs working with smaller formats, it greatly reduces film wastage and massively improves the hit rate of successful images.

Friends who were ardent Leicaphiles said always buy from an credited Leitz dealers, so I did my M3 body from Manchester, and 50mm Summicron, Sheffield, when I had an issue with a cracked view finder window it went to Leitz in London for repair, their "expensive" quote included a mandatory CLA. I was surprised when they rang and said the cost was substantially lower, as they could see from their records it had had a recent enough CLA. I was amazed by their honesty.

Malcolm Taylor is or was the nearest Leica repairman to me, he does the restoration work for Leitz's own factory collection.

A Leica M3, 50mm Summicron, Agfa AP or APX 100, processed in Rodinal, a marriage made in heaven, lovely tonality, sharpness, and very fine grain. Kodak's Tmax 50 gave identical results, same development times, processed alongside the Agfa films. Of course Kodak never made a Tmax 50, it was Tmax 100 however their datasheets recommended shooting at hal box speed for better tinality, and they had the ASA testing metholody changed so Tmax 100 could be 100 ASA/ISo.

Ian

I've always shot T-Max 100 at 100 ISO, and use Rodinoal or Parrodinal and live the results, especially on good Ilford RC papers, but, years back, working in a particular photographers studio, at 64:1 parts, not 50 or 100 dilutions, in 135, 120, 4"x5".

I'll have to actually dig some to see if I have any notes, as I cleared out a lot of my own files, twice.

 

[Ian Grant]

I've always shot T-Max 100 at 100 ISO, and use Rodinoal or Parrodinal and live the results, especially on good Ilford RC papers, but, years back, working in a particular photographers studio, at 64:1 parts, not 50 or 100 dilutions, in 135, 120, 4"x5".

I'll have to actually dig some to see if I have any notes, as I cleared out a lot of my own files, twice.

Peter Goldfield in "The Goldfinger Craftbook for Creatuve Photography" noted that the Agfa America datasheet for Rodinal dilutions and development times was quite different to Agfa Germany fon non Agfa films (late 70s/early 80s),. At the time Peter was the sole importer of Agfa B&W materials in the UK, as Agfa had pulled out of the market. Peter had spent time in the US with Minor White, and assisted Paul Caponigro.

Ian