Zenit: Unfairly maligned?

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foc

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All I can say is that I have a Zenit 11, a Zorki 4 and a Fed 4b and I am very happy with them. I did get the Zorki and Feb serviced 10 years ago and they are like new.
I never had them fail (before or after service).

Back in the late 1970's I also had a Zenit UPA5M enlarger, the one that dismantles into the suitcase. It worked a treat and I now regret selling it.

Personally, I think Soviet-era cameras get a bad press, a bit like the Lada car. They were crude, yes, but they did work. Otherwise, why were so many of them made and still survive today, 30 years after the fall of the Soviet Union?
 

Donald Qualls

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They were crude, yes, but they did work. Otherwise, why were so many of them made and still survive today, 30 years after the fall of the Soviet Union?

The Soviet Union had a population close to twice that of the USA, these cameras were cheaper there than a low-end strobe here, and production runs (due to the large captive market) ran into millions. If you produced ten million of anything, and sold them to people who mostly couldn't afford to use them (ever seen how Svema sold film? Loose strips, rolled in foil, to use in reloading your one cassette, because the cost of the cassette was significant in that market), there'd be a lot of them still in "working order" thirty or forty years later.
 

AgX

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The Soviet Union had a population close to twice that of the USA, these cameras were cheaper there than a low-end strobe here, and production runs (due to the large captive market) ran into millions. If you produced ten million of anything, and sold them to people who mostly couldn't afford to use them (ever seen how Svema sold film? Loose strips, rolled in foil, to use in reloading your one cassette, because the cost of the cassette was significant in that market), there'd be a lot of them still in "working order" thirty or forty years later.


-) 10 million SLRs that still was too much for the USSR itself

-) prices of cameras are hard to compare.
not only affluent incomes differed, but also in socialist countries consumer goods typically were relative to the gross income more expensive (in effect higher taxed) to compensate state subsidies on basic goods, rents, medical care, education etc.

-) selling film in reloadable packs, without cassette even existed in West-Germany, as did long rolls.


You fellows see things too often from your US perspective.
(And today selling things in refills is trendy...)
 
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Huss

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My point was that we can discuss the quality of a camera. But our arguments should remain logic. And your argument about the Zenit being bought or not, was not logic.

Concerning japanese cameras, they were long time just not on the market here. I guess so too for Britain, with their import restrictions.

When I was a kid in England - 1980s - the Japanese had already arrived. Not sure when they first showed up. But Zenit was sold new alongside them.
 

removedacct2

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Actually all my Zenits looked great, even smelled good.

The reality is they just suck compared to what was being manufactured in Japan and elsewhere. If they didn't they would have been used by professional photographers all over the world. But for some reason they instead used Nikon, Canon, Pentax etc. If Zenits were any good those would have been used.

define "suck"...
Most known Zenit ie, the 3M derivatives in M42 mount: E(x)/1(x)/V are basic cameras with limited shutter times because they are just build around the Leica II style shutter, no complex gearwork nor clockwork, just geometric distance intervals between notches. It's very basic but the simplicity goes with reliability.
Lack of slow speeds 1s to 1/15 and lack of 1/1000s brings limitations of course. So it's about features.

To use again the cars analogy a VW Beetle isn't a Porsche 356 nor 911, but is it a bad car?

these Zenit weren't meant to be for professionals and in fact soviet industry knew very well they had a dilemma between the need for professional gear and the philosophy of economical affordability and production costs control, which did limit in the first place for ideological reasons manufacture of high-precision heavy-duty cameras.
So they kept manufacturing mostly (not only) simple low-tech but reliable systems and easy to maintain.

My S, 3, 3M, V run perfectly. But then if you tinker a bit, you can pick any old Zenit with slow curtains, jammed shutter, uneven times, and fix it yourself, because it's so simple. The most time consuming is replacing or reglueing curtains ribbons. Then you have a simple yet good and reliable shooter.
Lack of features isn't bad per se, bad is bad design or design/implementation mismatch.

An old Zenit isn't good for handheld shooting at slow speed, for this there are the electronically controlled shutters ones, the 18/19, The 212k has 1/8 and 1/15. Or in full mechanical, the uncommon leaf shutters 4/5/6, and of course the Start, not a Zenit proper but still a derivative.
For very fast lenses at full aperture in sunny days, ND filters must be used.

----------
A famous case of bad: the Almaz manufactured <10,000 by Lomo: they were instructed to make an implementation of the Nikon F2, engineers told they didn't have machine tools able to produce high precision level of gearwork, pawls, cogs, etc , for such a camera, but politicians wanted it to be done anyway. The result was a non-functional camera that did break or jam easily. Working exemplars were the ones rebuild by some outside the factory.


When I was a kid Zenits were sold new in England. Even then they were seen as the thing you got only if you had to have a new camera and couldn't afford anything else.
Trying to re-write history that they actually were good is just that.

what rewrite? when i was kid at the same time, Zenit and Praktica were a staple of the mail order catalogs Quelle/Otto/La Redoute/3 Suisses/etc. People who couldn't afford a BMW did buy a Fiat 124 and instead of a Nikon or Pentax, a Zenit. A Fiat 124 "sucks" relatively to a BMW, but it's certainly not a bad car and Zenit opened the world of interchangeable lenses SLR to tens of thousands of people who otherwise would have kept point-and-shoot scale cameras.

----

about features, early japanese SLR didn't have 1/1000s either, were knob winding and no instant mirror return.

The Miranda-D I picked last week caught my attention because its mix of similarities with a Zenit-V and a Start: interchangeable prism, rotating lift-to-set speed dial, and like the basic Zenit, a simple latch for opening the backdoor. It's better finished/polished than the brute stamping of the Zenit, otherwise not much more. A bit like an old Praktica for the slow speed setting by dedicated dial (the Start is better, it has all speeds to 1/1000 on a single Zorki-3m/4 dial, takes removable cartridges and has internal film cutter, Exakta-like). No lightmeter of course, not even uncoupled like the Z-E.

Miranda-D_topp.jpg

Miranda-D_sidelås.jpg



the classic Zenit was just a 1930's design at core, manufactured until the 90's...
 

craigclu

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My first rig in high school was a Zenit E with the Helios. I showed some interest in using my dad's Bantam 828 and wanted to try darkroom activities and he surprised me by buying a Zenit E while we were killing time, waiting for my mother at a shopping mall camera store. The affordability made it an easier impulse buy, I believe. I bought my first car from a family friend about that time and one of the first photos I developed and printed was of my Citroen.... Non-plumbed darkroom in the parents' basement with a Spiratone enlarger and its package lens. I was likely using Essex film and Spiratone single weight paper (all affordable on a tight kid's budget, especially being a car owner!). That old Zenit worked well for years and I recall fantasizing about a camera without pre-set lenses during that time!

I recall posting this somewhere, so excuse me if it was in here awhile back.

citroen.jpg
 

Huss

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define "suck"....

Very dark viewfinder
Viewfinder that shows only 60% of the actual image
Limited shutter speeds
Very rough/heavy shutter button with very long throw due to having to stop down the lens aperture
Extremely poor light meters
Film advance cogs that can tear the film
Light leaks
Battery caps that do not stay on
Poor reliability
 

removedacct2

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Very dark viewfinder
Viewfinder that shows only 60% of the actual image
Limited shutter speeds
Very rough/heavy shutter button with very long throw due to having to stop down the lens aperture
Extremely poor light meters
Film advance cogs that can tear the film
Light leaks
Battery caps that do not stay on
Poor reliability

the only objective data in that is the limited shutter speeds and small VF coverage.
Specs are on KMZ site http://www.zenitcamera.com/mans/index-eng.html, all Zenit but the electronic ones (MT/19/18) have 20x28 viewfinder so a ~77% coverage, the electronic ones have 95% (22,8x34,2), the Start ~91% (22x33)

Viewfinders can be very bright or darker depending the models, the groundglass is very luminous on my V, more than on my Spotmatic or Yashica.
Meters are absent on the V, are uncoupled selenium ie. degrading over time in the E series, CdS and hence stable on the TTL and further models. Malfunction of meters is related copper corrosion which is related usage/storage conditions. Same for foams Advance cogs don't rip off the film if the film is set correctly and the rewind isn't stuck with solidified lubricant. Green corrosion inside battery housing and worn out battery covers is a common disease on all cameras due to abuse (force the slot and the thread of the cover when replacing batteries).
The late 212k has an ambivalent reputation, probably because sloppier manufacturing/controls.

the bottom line is that you don't like the Zenit. Good!
 

Huss

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the only objective data in that is the limited shutter speeds and small VF coverage.
Specs are on KMZ site http://www.zenitcamera.com/mans/index-eng.html, all Zenit but the electronic ones (MT/19/18) have 20x28 viewfinder so a ~77% coverage, the electronic ones have 95% (22,8x34,2), the Start ~91% (22x33)

24x36 = 864. That is 100% coverage.
Zenit is 20x28 = 560.

That is 65% coverage of the image area. Which, let's not beat around the bush, is absolutely awful.

How did you come up with 77%?
 

AgX

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When discussing prints and enlargements percentage typically is applied on the length.
Then we are for the Zenit E at 80%.


And for the user a percentage on the length is still somewhat usable, but based on the area rather useless.

(If I remember right for japanese cameras also both ways of describing the viewfinder has been applied, depending on author.)
 

AgX

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Another point:
In West-Germany a rubber glue was employed at Agfa but also at other manufacturers that hardened and lost tack over those many decades, resulting in parts falling off. As those manufactured no curtain shutters it was not applied on them and thus no curtains tapes had ripped off. Only covers and such fell off.
Even the renown Agfa helicoid grease was not reason enough to reject Agfa cameraas as such. The same for light leaks in bellows.
Practically all japanese cameras from the 70's got an issue with foam rubber, that typically is seen as only affecting door seals, overlooking innards affected.
The majority of western 8mm cameras have rubber eye cups that turn either into goo, or broke into morsels. Japanese projectors have their drive belts turn into goo.

Never I have heard these manufacturers being described as shitty, for using insufficient materials..
 

Anon Ymous

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@AgX What you describe is faults developing after decades in many cases, right? The problem with Zenit cameras was their iffy quality control, not their crude nature per se. A crude, but otherwise reliable camera is perfectly usable. A camera that breaks shortly after being bought isn't.

Oh and guys, don't compare the Zenits to Ladas, you are being unfair to Ladas.
 

AgX

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Most cases here (correct me if I got it wrong) concern a situation of many decades after production. And "unused out of the box" or so to me does not mean having left the plant recently. But can mean being stored for decades in a closet. I got a lot of western cameras, seemingly never been used, but dead.

And yes, I got one Zenit sample that never should have passed quality control, due to an obvious fault. But I got western products too with an obvious fault.
 

AgX

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Back to the finder:


The main feature of the SLR concept is "What you see is what you get".

We know that there are margins at the advanced SLR's, but with the Zenit E this is very large.

To me though the important point is communicating this. With the consumer's expectation of "What you see is what you get" in mind.
I think in the original KMZ manuals the viewfinder size is incorporated in the specifications. But who reads them? Even when they are printed at the head of the manual (in contrast to most other manuals). And who understands them?

The british importer does not state the the viewfinder size in millimeters at all, but in the respective chapter speaks of a safety margin and the viewfoinder "showing an overall area somewhat smaller than the total film area", ensuring that in spite of masking at the processing stage, what one saw in the finder is still within the final image.


And indeed, it is typically overlooked at Apug that the standardized gate sizes for mounts and negative stages are smaller than 24x36.
And this should be taken into account when discussing a consumer camera.
But yes, the finder area of the Zenit E is extremely small, or rather: surprisingly small
 

Huss

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But yes, the finder area of the Zenit E is extremely small, or rather: surprisingly small

The genius of this design - combine the worst attributes of a rangefinder camera with the worst attributes of an SLR.
Result? Zenit.
 

jaeae

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When discussing prints and enlargements percentage typically is applied on the length.
Then we are for the Zenit E at 80%.

And for the user a percentage on the length is still somewhat usable, but based on the area rather useless.

(If I remember right for japanese cameras also both ways of describing the viewfinder has been applied, depending on author.)

I also bet that many cameras state their vf coverage in length or maybe diagonal.


The genius of this design - combine the worst attributes of a rangefinder camera with the worst attributes of an SLR.
Result? Zenit.

I think the answer here is also mechanical simplicity. Since the Zenit is the simplest SLR there is.
Rangefinders need better calibration of the lens + camera body. Also, the actual focus distance of the lens has to be exactly linear with the part of the lens that moves the RF arm. Which AFAIK sometimes needs additional mechanics in the lens. The SLR avoids such issues - it only needs to have the film plane distance + focus screen distance adjusted to match. The lens itself can be "thereabouts".
 

AgX

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Can someone explain why the finder screen is that small?

So far my idea was that it is due to sticking as much as possible to the Zorki chassis, and that put these limits.

But today Antonio stated:
All Zenit but the electronic ones (MT/19/18) have 20x28 viewfinder so a ~77% coverage, the electronic ones have 95% (22,8x34,2), the Start ~91% (22x33)

Why then got the Start from 1958 already even a bigger screen?
 

flavio81

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the only objective data in that is the limited shutter speeds and small VF coverage.
Specs are on KMZ site http://www.zenitcamera.com/mans/index-eng.html, all Zenit but the electronic ones (MT/19/18) have 20x28 viewfinder so a ~77% coverage,

For me this was the main thing against most Zenit cameras. My first camera was a Zenit and I could immediately notice the big difference between what I framed vs what ended up on the final print.
 

Huss

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When discussing prints and enlargements percentage typically is applied on the length.
Then we are for the Zenit E at 80%.

I see film coverage as the total area that the film covers. Not on one axis.

The total area the Zenit covers in the VF is 66%. What you see when you look through that dim VF is only 66% of what will show up on the film.

But here's the thing. For someone to create a thread titled "Zenit: Unfairly maligned" pretty much answers itself. And sometimes the correct answer is the first and most obvious one.

Is Zenit unfairly maligned? Most definitely not.

When you create a camera that is the absolute worst in its class in every category one can think of (that would be useful for photography - boat anchor does not qualify), then you deserve as much maligning as you can get.

The correct question is.... Is there a worse 35mm SLR than Zenit? That actually would be a far more interesting discussion.
 

foc

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The Zenit to me is like a parent's love for their child.
No matter how ugly they are.
No matter how badly they behave.
No matter how much trouble they get into........ we still love them ! ! !

There are people in the world that hate Zenit cameras.
Just like some people hate:
  • Film squeegees.
  • Pre wet developing.
  • Shoot at box speed less 1/3 stop.
  • No stop bath.
  • Insert your own here.
But there are also people that love them.
We may be in the minority.
We may be shunned by the camera owning majority.
We may even be considered not normal and strangely deviant.
We may even be considered simple. like the camera.

BUT.......................................................................
 

AgX

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I see film coverage as the total area that the film covers. Not on one axis.

I never denied that extreme little coverage. But as I indicated you chose a figure that even makes it looks worse to SLRs where their coverage is calculated differently.
 

Huss

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Here's the funny thing. While I really think they are cr@p, I still like them. Especially the TTL series. Just for the way they look.

Am I the only one who had a TTL with really sharp edges to the cold shoe? If not careful, that thing could draw blood!
 

Huss

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The Zenit to me is like a parent's love for their child.
No matter how ugly they are.
No matter how badly they behave.
No matter how much trouble they get into........ we still love them ! ! !

There are people in the world that hate Zenit cameras.
Just like some people hate:
  • Film squeegees.
  • Pre wet developing.
  • Shoot at box speed less 1/3 stop.
  • No stop bath.
  • Insert your own here.
But there are also people that love them.
We may be in the minority.
We may be shunned by the camera owning majority.
We may even be considered not normal and strangely deviant.
We may even be considered simple. like the camera.

BUT.......................................................................

Seriously you use film squeegees? What's wrong with you?

:wink:
 

AgX

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Am I the only one who had a Zenit TTL with really sharp edges to the cold shoe? If not careful, that thing could draw blood!

Get yourself any Praktica L-series model. They all got the likely most refined shoe thee is on a SLR.
Except for unknown reason they all have terribly sharp corners at the front. It would have needed just a tiny bit of grinding to smoothen these two corners before chroming.
Unbelivable that ignorants or penny foxes saved on this step all those years.
 
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