CD4-LC low contrast developer for scanning

[JWMster]

Alan:

Thanks! I'm an inkjet printer ("Yes, one of THOSE!")... 'cause it's what I got and can be reasonably proficient with.
Curious where you've found microfilm... think I've seen it at the FPP perhaps, but seldom anywhere else (all 2 or 3 places these days!).
I love B&W... especially if I can get the subject into full tones and the rest in muted grays... a goal I've seen elsewhere that looks cool.
That said, I like a lot of work folks show here.... yours is great. And so I try to learn.... and even when I'm learning "not for me" or "not for my film / developer combo" it's all good. Thanks!

 

[dokko]

very interesting approach to tame the contrast (and some great photos I might add). thanks for sharing Alan!

Did you ever try your developer with Agfa Copex Rapid?

I use that film quite a lot, usually developed in Spur Dokuspeed SL-N, and while it generally works very well I find the highlights often a bit problematic. It's a rather expensive developer too, so it would be nice to have an alternative.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I developed a sheet of 8x10 HP5 in CD4-LC. The subject luminance range was quite wide, and normally I would have given the film N-1 in Xtol, or another conventional developer. I had to guess the time, as I've only thoroughly tested it with CMS 20 II. The negative is a bit on the thin side (DR of 1.00). I wanted to make a Kallitype print directly from it but since the DR was too low, I went the other route. Scanned in nicely and was able to make a very nice Kallitype!

 

[Alan Johnson]

I have stuck with Adox CMS 20 II and Spur Ultra R 800 because IIRC they are both confectioned by Adox and I never had any problems with them.
IDK who puts the Copex Rapid into cassettes.

 

[dokko]

I have stuck with Adox CMS 20 II and Spur Ultra R 800 because IIRC they are both confectioned by Adox and I never had any problems with them.
IDK who puts the Copex Rapid into cassettes.

the Agfa Copex Rapid indeed seems to be confectioned some what less reliably than Adox products. I also like Adox CMS 20 II but unfortunately it is not available anymore in 120

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Had the 8x10 set up on a suspension bridge, over the Pitt River. Shot some HP5 and developed it in CD4-LC. Guessed the time. Should have developed for longer as the negs came out a bit thin... Still scanned in nicely, and was able to make a Kallitype the hybrid way... I'm pretty confident that with a little tweaking of my development time, it will be a good developer to help control overly long subject luminance ranges...

 

[Alan Johnson]

Interesting to see your results with a "normal" contrast film HP5+ Andy, and a very nice pic too.
I daresay this low contrast developer may more closely match one of the "moderate contrast" Aviphot derivative films but did not get around to trying it yet.

 

[JWMster]

Like the shot and the process. Thanks for sharing!

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Wanted to see if it's a decent developer for a favourite film of mine...

 

[Alan Johnson]

Seems like your development time and agitation could be used for a lot of the Rollei films in 120 ,Andy.

Here: List of repackaged Agfa Aviphot Pan 80 and 200 films and Kentmere 100 and 400 films

I just want to fulfill a wish by some forum members and a moderator: Here is the list of current repackaged (rebranded) Agfa Aviphot Pan 80 and 200 films and Kentmere 100 and 400 films: Agfa Aviphot Pan 80: Repackaged as Rollei Retro 80s and Rollei RPX 25. Agfa Aviphot Pan 200: Repackaged as...

www.photrio.com

Repackaged Aviphot 80 and 200 appear to be moderate high contrast films that CD4-LC tames to normal contrast if that is wanted.

Appreciate your interesting results.

 

[Alan Johnson]

A dull autumn day shot on the mid-high contrast Adox HR-50.
Focus appears to be on leaves in the center which show good sharpness and low grain.
The negative would likely print well on silver gelatin. Adox have their own recommendations for this.



It may be interesting to note that that the idea of using PPD derivatives to develop B/W film originates at least 25 years ago, see The Film Developing Cookbook 1998 p99.
Apart from Adox Atomal there seem to be no other such developers.

 

[Corn_Zhou]

A dull autumn day shot on the mid-high contrast Adox HR-50.
Focus appears to be on leaves in the center which show good sharpness and low grain.
The negative would likely print well on silver gelatin. Adox have their own recommendations for this.



It may be interesting to note that that the idea of using PPD derivatives to develop B/W film originates at least 25 years ago, see The Film Developing Cookbook 1998 p99.
Apart from Adox Atomal there seem to be no other such developers.

Moersch Finol (In production) and Tetenal Emofin (currently out of production) both used CD-1 as the primary developing agent.

 

[koraks]

Moersch Finol (In production) and Tetenal Emofin (currently out of production) both used CD-1 as the primary developing agent.

In Finol it's one out of 3 developing agents together with catechol and pyrogallol, and they appear to be present in similar quantities. I'm not sure how they relate in terms of activity and whether this makes the CD1 the primary developing agent. It is an oddball developer for sure. It's good though; it worked wonders on Fomapan 100 for me. Very nice negatives.

 

[Corn_Zhou]

In Finol it's one out of 3 developing agents together with catechol and pyrogallol, and they appear to be present in similar quantities. I'm not sure how they relate in terms of activity and whether this makes the CD1 the primary developing agent. It is an oddball developer for sure. It's good though; it worked wonders on Fomapan 100 for me. Very nice negatives.

It is a very interesting developer indeed. According to the datasheet, solution B is a bufferred alkali (carbonate-bicarbonate) which brings its pH down to a point where catechol and pyrogallol is not that active compared to a straight carbonate alkali like the solution B for Pyrocat.
Also, may I ask about the starting point developing time for Foma films in Finol?

 

[koraks]

Also, may I ask about the starting point developing time for Foma films in Finol?

I only used it on Fomapan 100 and I started out with something like 10 minutes at 1+1+100. In my memory this was slightly on the long side, but still a good starting point.
I once tried to ask Wolfang Moersch about this, but never received a reply.

 

[Corn_Zhou]

I only used it on Fomapan 100 and I started out with something like 10 minutes at 1+1+100. In my memory this was slightly on the long side, but still a good starting point.
I once tried to ask Wolfang Moersch about this, but never received a reply.

Thanks!

 

[Alan Johnson]

Moersch Finol (In production) and Tetenal Emofin (currently out of production) both used CD-1 as the primary developing agent.

It is the high concentration of CD-4 that causes the contrast reduction [pic].
AFAIK CD-1 at high concentration has never been tried. It would be more toxic by many accounts.

 

[Alan Johnson]

I have found that while CD4-LC works well with microfilms , Aviphot derived films and the contrasty Ferrania P30, given a bit of help from contrast reduction in scanner software, like all developers that are re-used with increase in time, its use is a bit complicated. Also like other reuseable developers containing sulfite it tends to precipitate out finely divided silver and care is necessary to avoid this getting on the film, ie, decant the clear solution or filter out any precipitate.

So for the types of film mentioned I have found the one shot developer TDLC-102 devised by Bill Troop to be easier to use:

TDLC-102 developer (Bill Troop)

This one shot developer can give pictorial results with Adox CMS20 II or Spur Ultra R 800. It is detailed in The Film Developing Cookbook 1998 p97 and in FDC 2020 p132. In FDC 2020 p134 it is noted that HQMS might replace glycin. I made and use a 10x concentrate: Demin water 40C...

www.photrio.com

With a little contrast reduction in scanning the above films I have tested can be shot at box speed in TDLC-102. For silver gelatin printing, depending on the subject contrast range, they may benefit from a reduction in EI to below box speed ,where they give a somewhat less S-shaped curve.

In conventional developers a considerable reduction in EI may be required to give a pictorial result.

 

[Alan Johnson]

Having found that TDLC-102 gave thinner negatives after about 1 month (using CMS20 II film) I made a test to compare it with CD4-LC 11.5 months old.
Both developers TDLC-102 concentrate and CD4-LC working solution were stored in glass bottles under inert gas.
The results (attachment) show that CD4-LC best meets the requirement of being long lasting.

 

[Alan Johnson]

I returned to developing CMS20 II in CD4-LC after finding the 2-bath MeCD4 a bit like hard work and the TDLC-102 having a short shelf life.

The batch of CD4-LC used is now 12 months old, stored in a glass bottle under inert gas, and this is the 8th film developed in it, developed for 9 min x170% x 1.3 , agitated every 3 minutes.
That is a base time of 9 minutes 20C corrected with an increase of 70% for the 8th film, an additional x1.3 for agitation every 3 minutes and an additional correction for temperature:

Massive Dev Chart Film Development, Film Developing Database

www.digitaltruth.com

 

[relistan]

Looking pretty long-lasting @Alan Johnson !

 

[Alan Johnson]

The later films I developed in this batch gave a bit thinner negatives using the times suggested in post 36 so I tried increasing the development time 10% for each film compared to the previous film.
This gives: N=1 9m, 2=9.9m,3=10.9m,4=12m,5=13m,6=14.5m,7=16m,8=17.5m,9=19.3m,10=21.2m all 20C, to be further multiplied by 1.3 for agitation every 3 minutes and corrected for temperature.
For my 9th film in this batch of CD4-LC this gave a better negative density than post 36 times.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

I have found that use of high concentrations of CD-4 reduces the contrast of microfilms [pic] and the contrast is further reduced by minimal agitation every 3 min.
In combination with reduction of contrast in scanner software this enables some microfilms to be shot at box speed.
The CD-4 oxidation products [pic] probably partially block the silver grain surfaces, their composition is discussed by Weissberger:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/27829315?read-now=1&seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

CD4-LC
Metol........................................1g
Sodium Sulfite anh...........30g
CD-4.......................................12g
Borax........................................4g
Water to...................................1L.....pH~8...............store in glass bottle under inert gas.

The developer is used with 5 inversions at start then 2 inversions every 3rd minute, adding 30% to the times given below, temperature correction according to the chart at Ilfordphoto.com.
Film 1 9m , 2 9.5 min, 3 9.9 min,4 10.5 min, 5 11 min,6 11.5 min, 7 12min, 812.7min, 9 13.2min, 10 14 min, all times for 20C. Reduce times if negatives too dense. Fix 2 min, wash 5min, Photoflo.

Examples:
Adox CMS20 II EI=20:



Spur Ultra R 800 EI=32:

beautiful contrast in your images; worth exploring further.

 

[Alan Johnson]

I tried another high resolution high contrast film, Fuji Eterna RDS 4791, this may continue in production unlike CMS20 because of its use in archiving motion pictures.
A reasonable result was obtained at EI=6, 1/20 f4, but compared to CMS20 II at EI=20 there are more limitations at EI =6.

 

[relistan]

Looks good @Alan Johnson