FB paper and cold water

[Elmarc]

Hello all,
During the winter months the water temperature in my darkroom is around 12 degrees C. As a result, I have to wait until the warmer months to print with FB paper using the Ilford archival method.
I have access to hot water but that is two floors up from the darkroom and I am concerned that the ilford process of one minute fix and then straight into the first wash would be negated if I have to carry the fixer laden print to another location as I am aware that a great deal of fixer is removed during the first wash and the longer the fix is allowed to permeate the paper the more difficult it is to remove successfully.
I also doubt that the water temperature of 12 degrees will not do the job sufficiently. The water temperature in late spring/summer reaches 20-24C so no problem there.
Does anyone else have or has had the same problem and if so are there any workarounds?
Any insights are always appreciated.

 

[F4U]

I would think 53 degrees for washing prints would likely be OK. Not ideal, but I see no harm, especially if you let it cost you waiting your life away to do your hobby, for the little bit of imperfection it might cost you. It's still fresh water, and it still does it's job. If you were developing at 53 degrees, that's a horse of another color.

 

[john_s]

I have read from reliable sources that a wash aid (sodium sulphite mostly) enables much more effective washing in cold water*. Maybe you could carry a couple of 5L bottles of warm water to the darkroom and let the print go through such a bath for a while before taking it upstairs.

I use a Nova vertical slot print processor and I acquired a spare additional slot and I do just that: quick rinse after fix, then in the wash aid for a few minutes, then into the cold water washer.

I can find a source for that statement if you like.

 

[jeffreyg]

You might want to look into an aquarium heater. They are inexpensive and you can adjust for a specific temperature.

 

[Elmarc]

I have read from reliable sources that a wash aid (sodium sulphite mostly) enables much more effective washing in cold water*. Maybe you could carry a couple of 5L bottles of warm water to the darkroom and let the print go through such a bath for a while before taking it upstairs.

I use a Nova vertical slot print processor and I acquired a spare additional slot and I do just that: quick rinse after fix, then in the wash aid for a few minutes, then into the cold water washer.

I can find a source for that statement if you like.

Thank you for your reply. Are all your stages of washing in cold water? If so have you tested the prints for fixer residue?

 

[Elmarc]

You might want to look into an aquarium heater. They are inexpensive and you can adjust for a specific temperature.

But does an aquarium heater allow for running water? I was under the impression that this type of heater was used under trays of still water/chemicals. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Don_ih]

One of the effects of hypo clear (essentially sodium sulfite) is that fixer washes out rapidly no matter the temperature of the water - I read it in some Kodak thing or other - just as @john_s says above.

 

[MattKing]

If your air temperature is higher, you could consider filling a large container with water ahead of time and then allowing it to come to room temperature before commencing a low flow rate wash.

 

[mshchem]

Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent was hawked by Kodak in days of yore as the answer to cold water washing. Of course this was back in the 50's and 60's, way before Ilford's modern method.
I like Matt's suggestion.

 

[F4U]

Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent was hawked by Kodak in days of yore as the answer to cold water washing. Of course this was back in the 50's and 60's, way before Ilford's modern method.
I like Matt's suggestion.

What is Ilford's modern method? Is is better than Perma Wash, which I've always considered dubious?

 

[MurrayMinchin]

I'm using waterproof electric heating pads under my trays that are meant for germinating seeds which keep solutions in trays at a perfect temperature in my cool basement darkroom. Check greenhouse supply websites. Another electric pad option can be found on farm equipment websites which are meant for keeping baby pigs warm.

Both kinds come in various sizes. Some even come with temperature probes and thermostatic control.

This might work if you're not dumping and refilling with cold water too often and plan ahead a bit for the pads to warm things up.

 

[koraks]

I also doubt that the water temperature of 12 degrees will not do the job sufficiently.

Cold water will make for a veeeeeerry slow wash. So your concerns are justified.

Put a water cooker in your darkroom, and add some boiling water to a tray of cold water, then put your prints in. It's relatively quick & easy to bring a decently sized tray of water up to 20-24C.

I would think 53 degrees for washing prints would likely be OK.

No, it's not. Washing is a diffusion process. It will proceed very slowly at lower temperatures.

 

[jeffreyg]

I was thinking about the Ilford washing technique when I suggested an aquarium heater. He wouldn’t have to carry heated water to the room. He could heat it there.

 

[Elmarc]

I was thinking about the Ilford washing technique when I suggested an aquarium heater. He wouldn’t have to carry heated water to the room. He could heat it there.

So the aquarium heater would sit at the bottom or side of the tray for example, and heat the incoming flow of cold water?

 

[Elmarc]

Cold water will make for a veeeeeerry slow wash. So your concerns are justified.

Put a water cooker in your darkroom, and add some boiling water to a tray of cold water, then put your prints in. It's relatively quick & easy to bring a decently sized tray of water up to 20-24C.



No, it's not. Washing is a diffusion process. It will proceed very slowly at lower temperatures.

Unless I have misunderstood, the problem I face is the primary wash in cold water directly after the fix but not the later wash stage. A heated tray would have to go through several exchanges of water to have the same affect as a 5/10 minute wash at 20c. Is this what you were suggesting?

 

[Elmarc]

If your air temperature is higher, you could consider filling a large container with water ahead of time and then allowing it to come to room temperature before commencing a low flow rate wash.

The air temperature can be 20c with a portable radiator installed yes, but can you expand on the suggestion of the large water container and low flow rate please?

 

[pentaxuser]

So the aquarium heater would sit at the bottom or side of the tray for example, and heat the incoming flow of cold water?

Yes but I very much doubt that the wattage of an aquarium heater is enough to raise the temp of constant running cold water to a worthwhile level beyond what it flows in at. Not that that seems to matter based on other posts. It just means that purchase of an aquarium heater may be a waste of money for this purpose and is anyway unnecessary

pentaxuser

 

[Elmarc]

Yes but I very much doubt that the wattage of an aquarium heater is enough to raise the temp of constant running cold water to a worthwhile level beyond what it flows in at. Not that that seems to matter based on other posts. It just means that purchase of an aquarium heater may be a waste of money for this purpose and is anyway unnecessary

pentaxuser

Yes, I tend to agree. Although I have no experience with such heaters, I could not visualise the cold running water being heated to an acceptable temperature in such a way.

 

[koraks]

Is this what you were suggesting?

Washing is slower at lower temperatures. It's that simple. Raise temperature, and it'll be faster. To an extent, you can compensate for a lower temperature with a longer wash. Any wash, warm or cold, will have to involve a sufficient replacement of the 'used' wash water - so either continuous flow or changes of water. The latter in practice is fine.

Yes but I very much doubt that the wattage of an aquarium heater is enough to raise the temp of constant running cold water to a worthwhile level beyond what it flows in at.

This can easily be calculated. Heating 1g of water by one 1 degree C takes ca. 4.2J. Joules relate to electrical power through the relation 1W = 1J/s. So a 60W aquarium heater will dump around 60J per second into the water it's surrounded with (we can assume a near-100% conversion efficiency). The rest is simple arithmetic and a bit of practical engineering. Without running the number, your concern seems justified.
The aquarium heaters I'm familiar with are not designed to sit in a flow line; they're designed to be lowered into a fish tank.

 

[Elmarc]

Washing is slower at lower temperatures. It's that simple. Raise temperature, and it'll be faster. To an extent, you can compensate for a lower temperature with a longer wash. Any wash, warm or cold, will have to involve a sufficient replacement of the 'used' wash water - so either continuous flow or changes of water. The latter in practice is fine.



This can easily be calculated. Heating 1g of water by one 1 degree C takes ca. 4.2J. Joules relate to electrical power through the relation 1W = 1J/s. So a 60W aquarium heater will dump around 60J per second into the water it's surrounded with (we can assume a near-100% conversion efficiency). The rest is simple arithmetic and a bit of practical engineering. Without running the number, your concern seems justified.
The aquarium heaters I'm familiar with are not designed to sit in a flow line; they're designed to be lowered into a fish tank.

What I am really concerned with is the initial (in my case) 10 minute wash directly after fixing. I suppose I could lengthen the time by taking into account the -8 degrees (Although I'm not sure what this would equate to) and then hypo test once the first print has been through the washaid and final wash in the archival washer at 20c.

 

[snusmumriken]

Has anyone got a formula for working out how much longer/shorter the wash time should theoretically be for each degree difference in temperature?

 

[jeffreyg]

I’m not using an aquarium heater, just the opposite living in south Florida I keep a gallon of distilled water in a refrigerator to cool developer when developing film. I thought it would be a simple way to heat containers of water in his darkroom to a specific temperature. I wasn’t suggesting that it would heat running water

 

[john_s]

Electric heating a flow of cold water uses a huge amount of power. We have one that warms water for hand washing, bidet etc where the preset temperature is a benefit (not to the level of kitchen hot water temp, or even bath temp) and if I remember correctly it draws 10kW of power. I looked at having one for the darkroom but decided it wasn't worth the trouble and expense.

 

[F4U]

I saw the guy lives in Europe. Europe is a big place, and there's a lot of really cold countries. Some of them of lesser financial or physical means, yet still want to carry on their phoography. Good for them. If cold water is all you can manage to wash your prints with, then fine. Use it. It's much better than the alternative. Consider the folks who live in Siberia. Certainly there is a dedicated photographic enthusiest among them. Imagine them going out to gather ice and snow to melt for their hobby.

 

[koraks]

Has anyone got a formula for working out how much longer/shorter the wash time should theoretically be for each degree difference in temperature?

No, but count on an exponential curve. Much like development time vs temperature.