First roll of Harman Phoenix photos up!

Vetus · Dec 1, 2023

{Moderator's note: much of this thread was originally posted in the pre-announcement speculation thread. Now that the announcement is official, we have moved most of the post-announcement posts to this thread. The old thread has been locked, and this thread remains open, with the hope that any comments about the film itself will be posted here.
You can find the old thread here: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/harman-photo-cryptic-announcement-teaser.202435/#post-2733146}

200 colour film then

analogwisdom · Dec 1, 2023

Vetus said:
200 colour film then

"First genuinely new colour film since Portra in 1998" has got to be incorrect, right?

Anon Ymous · Dec 1, 2023

analogwisdom said:
"First genuinely new colour film since Portra in 1998" has got to be incorrect, right?

Definitely incorrect.

Agulliver · Dec 1, 2023

Flighter said:
A 2-pack for £25.98 at First Call in England
https://www.firstcall-photographic.co.uk/harman-phoenix-c41-colour-film-c-41-135-36-pack-of-2/p13296

I have ordered a two pack from them, as I have an account and needed some other items. Thanks for the heads up that they've put it on sale a bit earlier than expected.

Not expecting Fuji C200 quality but I'm sure I'll see some samples at 4pm this afternoon to give me some ideas what to do with this stuff when it arrives. I'm kinda thinking clear but not too sunny winter walk perhaps. Taking in some frosty countryside as a start. NYE plans have fallen through so I won't be shooting any at a party but I might shoot a few frames at the jazz club even though it's not at all high speed film. I've shot Pro Image 100 in an olympus Mju 1 there and actually got results with the flash off. Be interesting to see how it does under such unusual lighting.

BMbikerider · Dec 1, 2023

I have just received an E ,ail from a company in UK (Firstcall Photographic) who have sent me details of the new film. They have stocks but limited supplies until March 2024 and prices at £26.98 for 2 x 36 exp cassettes. (about $21 at todays exchange rates)

They go on to say that this is the first really new C41 colour film since Kodak Portra in 1998 and made from start to finish in the Harman (Ilford) factory in Mobberley, Cheshire England.

Technical 'blurb' states it had a retro look with strong visible grain(?) punchy vibrant colours - intense greens, good reds, and vibrant greens. They go on to say that these can be affected by the setting on whatever scanner is used(?)

My take on this is why do they have to have visible grain? Why is it so expensive? Yes I think we all know that results can be affected by scanner settings - and do can it by altering colour head filtration!

Opinion The price quoted from what looks like a trade type promotion is a lot more than I would care to pay and will not be buying any until the market has settled down and a full user appraisal has been made. Firstcall are not the cheapest place to buy in UK and almost certainly there will be better offers elsewhere.

Flighter · Dec 1, 2023

BMbikerider said:
Why is it so expensive?

Seems to be partly based on what it is thought that the UK market will pay. brbo's post above (#1508) gives a price of €13.70 at Notdfoto in Germany which converts to around £11.65.

BMbikerider · Dec 1, 2023

Flighter said:
Seems to be partly based on what it is thought that the UK market will pay. brbo's post above (#1508) gives a price of €13.70 at Notdfoto in Germany which converts to around £11.65.

The price quoted which I posted is for 2 cassettes.

Flighter · Dec 1, 2023

Yes, I should have said that would be around £23.20 for 2. VAT rates are similar, Germany 19% UK 20% so I would have expected a broadly similar price.

Lachlan Young · Dec 1, 2023

koraks said:
Sounds plausible they're using the existing coating head.
But looking at the current performance of the film, it looks like a single dye-forming layer per color, which makes me wonder if it might be coated in a single pass with a head that can coat up to 6 layers.

This brings the question how they'll handle a more advanced product in the future. Will they opt for the route to sacrifice coating capacity by double coating? Or will they add a head - and the necessary emulsion lines & tanks? I don't know how they've laid out that coating facility - do they have the holding tanks and feed lines running to the coating room so that they can actually use a coater with more layers?

In any case, it sounds to me like they're currently still pushing those decisions ahead of them.

This is why there are questions about the use of Delta/ epitaxial emulsions in the film - if you read up on the patent etc data that can be found on Delta technology, the underpinning idea seems to have been to make an epitaxial emulsion that enables 3 (or more) emulsions coated in a multilayer structure to be replaced by an epitaxial emulsion that can be coated in a single layer. The clear hint seems to have been that it would allow for simplifying the 2-3 layers per colour in colour materials without the problems that single layer per colour structures had had in the past - and with the benefits that fewer layers would have for internal halation between layers etc (the coloured couplers in the mask also likely play a role here, along with the regular anti-halation, which is probably why Ilford are making clear that there are halation risks with Phoenix). The question about epitaxial structures and necessary layers could probably only be answered by Fuji 400x, but its data on layers was more vague than some other Fuji materials ('Epitaxial Sigma Crystals' could probably be described as having a decisively unclear relationship with Delta technology, other than it post-dates Fuji working with Ilford to produce Fuji branded products).

I'd also add that Adox have said that coating Colour Mission with a single blended emulsion layer per colour rather than 2-3 results in an extremely slow film - if Ilford have managed to get an ISO 200 film to work with a single layer per colour that is roughly level with Colour Implosion, then that suggests something fairly innovative is going on.

brbo · Dec 1, 2023

Flighter said:
Seems to be partly based on what it is thought that the UK market will pay. brbo's post above (#1508) gives a price of €13.70 at Notdfoto in Germany which converts to around £11.65.

13,70 EUR price I quoted is with 22% VAT.

ChrisGalway · Dec 1, 2023

What utter rubbish, why make a third-rate colour neg film? Is this what we were waiting for? And the price is silly. What a let down!

Don_ih · Dec 1, 2023

ChrisGalway said:
What utter rubbish, why make a third-rate colour neg film?

Because they can't afford to not sell it. They don't have the ability to throw out a large batch of film just because it isn't ideal. Selling it will enable them to make improvements on the next batch. And the market currently likes film with "character".
First rate colour film is already available from Kodak.

Agulliver · Dec 1, 2023

The price seems realistic given the work that's gone into it. It became clear last week that those of us who deduced this would be something to fill the big gap in the market (affordable, amateur C41 film akin to Fuji C200 or Kodak Color Plus) were wrong. We've known since last week that this was an ISO 200 experimental film that wasn't going to be offered at some bargain price.

koraks · Dec 1, 2023

ChrisGalway said:
why make a third-rate colour neg film?

Yeah, very odd. For some reason they didn't manage to go from nothing to Portra in one go. Bunch of amateurs!

warden · Dec 1, 2023

ChrisGalway said:
What utter rubbish, why make a third-rate colour neg film?

Because it’s a necessary step toward developing a first-rate film. The influencers will likely feel the product is perfect as it is and will be disappointed when it is eventually perfected.

BrianShaw · Dec 1, 2023

warden said:
Because it’s a necessary step toward developing a first-rate film. The influencers will likely feel the product is perfect as it is and will be disappointed when it is eventually perfected.

Once the free samples and pre-release mystique are gone, do you really think these influencers are going to spend that kind of money on film with that kind of “character “? And, do you really think that many “serious” photographers are going to “invest” in the future improvement by buying lots and lots of this film?

Overrank · Dec 1, 2023

BrianShaw said:
Once the free samples and pre-release mystique are gone, do you really think these influencers are going to spend that kind of money on film with that kind of “character “? And, do you really think that many “serious” photographers are going to “invest” in the future improvement by buying lots and lots of this film?

I think you might not be the target market

George Mann · Dec 1, 2023

BrianShaw said:
Once the free samples and pre-release mystique are gone, do you really think these influencers are going to spend that kind of money on film with that kind of “character “? And, do you really think that many “real” photographers are going to “invest” in the future improvement by buying lots and lots of this film?

Have you seen the purposefully defective films that the Lomo crowd shoots with? This film is excellent compared to them, and pretty much in line with the rest of the Harman branded products!

Do you really want to limit yourself to just another Fuji or Kodak film?

LeoniD · Dec 1, 2023

koraks said:
OK, thanks. Given how muted the colors of unprocessed couplers are, I wonder if it'll really tamper those peaks as much. If you look at fresh emulsion, its color is really very faint. No doubt it does *something* to the color response, but not a whole lot.

@LeoniD you showed this picture and said something about spectral sensitivity. I'm wondering what we're looking at here. It appears to be a spectrum viewed through a piece of (processed?) film. As such, it seems more like a spectral density approximation to me. Am I mistaken?

The picture is from this article https://dzen.ru/a/YMVXFbWCFkaXgJze

I am not the author and may be severely misinterpreting it

BrianShaw · Dec 1, 2023

Overrank said:
I think you might not be the target market

I know I’m not. That’s a fact.

But what I’m poking at is the notion that they can really fund future improvements using the profit from the film sales. I don’t know their profit margin but I’m sure that the R&D funding needs greatly exceeds the profit potential of “beta test” film sales.

And from watching influencers in other genres on YouTube, they don’t seem like big spenders to me. Can’t say much more on that because I got beat up earlier for my characterization of influencers.

BrianShaw · Dec 1, 2023

George Mann said:
Have you seen the purposefully defective films that the Lomo crowd shoots with? This film is excellent compared to them, and pretty much in line with the rest of the Harman branded products!

Do you really want to limit yourself to just another Fuji or Kodak film?

Yes and yes. As pointed out earlier, I’m clearly not their target market. Not even close enough to buy some just to be part of the party. I have too much film in the fridge already from other “new film” releases that I bought, tried, and went back to my old reliables: Ilford B&W and Kodak color. None of those other “new” films were bad, per se, but just not the kind of “character” I enjoy.

Lachlan Young · Dec 1, 2023

BrianShaw said:
But what I’m poking at is the notion that they can really fund future improvements using the profit from the film sales. I don’t know their profit margin but I’m sure that the R&D funding needs greatly exceeds the profit potential of “beta test” film sales.

Rather than sending the test batch to silver recovery, packaging and selling it will make back considerably more of its costs - and give a useful indicator of where people want the colour rendering to go. I think you are severely underestimating just how expensive some of the components that will need synthesised are (silver is very cheap in comparison).

BrianShaw · Dec 1, 2023

Lachlan Young said:
Rather than sending the test batch to silver recovery, packaging and selling it will make back considerably more of its costs - and give a useful indicator of where people want the colour rendering to go. I think you are severely underestimating just how expensive some of the components that will need synthesised are (silver is very cheap in comparison).

I understand that and agree with you. Brilliant marketing and business decisions. I’m just wondering if it really has long-term potential or if it’s going to fizzle with only short-term results. Some I’m that annoying “glass half empty” skeptic and often I end up being correct.

Making back part of their investment doesn’t seem to include profit that can be rolled into future product improvements. That’s my concern.

warden · Dec 1, 2023

BrianShaw said:
Once the free samples and pre-release mystique are gone, do you really think these influencers are going to spend that kind of money on film with that kind of “character “? And, do you really think that many “serious” photographers are going to “invest” in the future improvement by buying lots and lots of this film?

Some influencers will buy it. Some in this thread will. Others too. It’ll sell out. Older and newer customers will have some fun. Harman will keep working on it.

George Mann · Dec 1, 2023

BrianShaw said:
I understand that. Brilliant marketing and business decisions. I’m just wondering if it really has long-term potential or if it’s going to fizzle with only short-term results. Some I’m that annoying “glass half empty” skeptic and often I end up being correct.

Only time will tell. But if people don't support it, you can most likely kiss any future efforts goodby.

First roll of Harman Phoenix photos up!

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