First roll of Harman Phoenix photos up!

Agulliver

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Harman are doing a "black friday" offer in the UK too. Which really rubs me up the wrong way because we don't have Thanksgiving or any other celebration around this time of year. But in the last 10 years or so, it seems to have become a marketing tool here.
 

pentaxuser

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MattKing said:
I have a feeling that pentaxuser is one of a fair number of people who don't do much digitization of their photography, so find it difficult to share their results on Photrio.
I could be wrong, but ....
Click to expand...

No You're not wrong Matt I woudn't even know where to begin with digitisation but my point was that in comparison with other colour films I have used and printed in the darkroom none have exhibited what I see as the garish colours ín the shots that were shown and on which I and several others made comments

albireo, yes, I agree that one man's "garish" may not be another man's "garish" and I hope this settles this difference of opinion between us It was not an attack on your judgement standards on colour films or Phoenix . I simply stated what I saw

pentaxuser
 

Sanug

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These harsh colours and contrasts were caused by the lab. Now as I own a Plustek 7300 scanner, I scanned the negatives and came to quite normal colours.











Praktica MTL 5, Pancolar 1,8/50, Harman Phoenix 200.
Plustek Opticfilm 7300. Vuescan.
 

lamerko

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The development of the topic is interesting - either the film has improved dramatically, or...
Decent footage of this movie is starting to become more frequent
 

albireo

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Adrian Bacon

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If a lab uses a commercial film scanner (think fuji frontier, noritsu, etc), Phoenix 200 tends to give them trouble. Those that use a "home" scanner and software that gives a lot of latitude, Phoenix 200 tends to come out just fine.
 

koraks

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Sanug said:
These harsh colours and contrasts were caused by the lab.
Click to expand...

They're really there in the film, too. Compare a Phoenix negative to a regular color negative. The contrast of the former is through the roof, so is saturation. With your scanner, you've compensated for this - but that doesn't change the original. Of course, as long as you're happy with the result, it doesn't really matter.
 

Agulliver

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I also find that my local lab, which uses a Agfa DLab2, has trouble with Phoenix to the extent that some rolls which look well exposed won't even scan at all.....whereas when I scan negatives on my ancient Epson flatbed firstly I can scan them all, and secondly I can usually tweak the colours and contrast to produce something that looks nice.

Though I have to say that those photos right above do look specifically nice. Might shoot some 120 Phoenix next week, depending on whether I finish a roll of Gold first.
 

brbo

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At least on Noritsu lab scanners Phoenix 200 shouldn't be too problematic.

This is what you would typically need to correct (some labs will have base settings turned up or down for heavier autocorrection, so operator might have to do less or more work):



Noritsu LS-600:



Drum scanner:




 

ChrisGalway

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I just looked again at the Harman advertising video in Post #35 where they claim it took "12 short months" to go from the project start to the first commercial 35mm cassette of Phoenix.

That post was 1st December 2023. It's now mid-February 2025 ... and no news or inkling of a second iteration?

The film is as bad as it was from the start. The only positive thing is that lots of people have improved their post-processing skills to get final results that are half-way acceptable ... well done! It shows the ingenuity of the community, who are willing Harman to succeed even though the company is milking us.
 

koraks

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ChrisGalway said:
even though the company is milking us.
Click to expand...

Come on now, nobody is holding a gun to your head to make you buy their product. I do agree that the only change we've seen is not the product itself, but the more competent post-processing by users. That is, if we ignore the introduction of a 120 format of the product, which I guess was/is meaningful to quite a few.

As to the product being 'bad' - I'd call it 'unique'. It does something that no other CN film on the market does. Whether you like that is entirely personal. I've shot only a few rolls of this, but whenever I show the stack of prints made from them, people invariably recognize something special is going on that works very well for some images (but definitely not all). If you understand and exploit this film's inherent characteristics, it's a unique and powerful photographic tool that has no equivalent in the film domain. I frankly hope and recommend that if Harman progresses this project towards a more conventional, masked CN film, they keep producing small batches of Phoenix as we know it now.
 

foc

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Very interesting, thank you for posting.

I never used a Noritsu just Frontiers but the same principles apply. The colour correction is basically adding in 7 to 9 buttons of magenta. I assume this is to compensate for the lack of orange mask.

I wonder if the operator placed a clear piece of orange masked film in front of the light source or between the Pheonix negative and the scan sensor, would this help reduce such a high magenta colour correction?
 

koraks

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foc said:
I wonder if the operator placed a clear piece of orange masked film in front of the light source or between the Pheonix negative and the scan sensor, would this help reduce such a high magenta colour correction?
Click to expand...

Can't speak for scanning since I've only scanned this 'raw' without any additions, but in optical printing, I do like to add a blank piece of processed CN film as a filter to get the filter values within a more conventional range. Works very well.
 

ChrisGalway

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Of course you are right, but I think Harman are taking us for a ride. Can you imagine Kodak or Fujifilm daring to market their first-iteration of a new film? (I recommend Robert Shanebrook's "Making Kodak Film", 2nd enlarged Edition). Companies with any sense of quality make many many "prototypes" before releasing a product ... good grief, even companies/entrepreneurs on Kickstarter do this! But not Harman it seems. And its now 14+ months since the release of Phoenix which took "12 short months".

I'm looking forward to Lucky's new colour film! https://reflxlab.com/blogs/news/lucky-color-film-2025-update . I'll wager a bet that it's technically better than Phoenix.
 

koraks

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ChrisGalway said:
I think Harman are taking us for a ride
Click to expand...

I think this has been discussed quite extensively around the time Phoenix was launched; you can go back several pages in this thread and read the arguments. At risk of repeating something that has been said many times, there appear to be two camps in this debate. One camp argues like you just did and complaints that essentially a pre-prototype product is being sold, which is an unusual (unprecedented in this market) choice. The other camp argues that it's not carved in stone that companies today should act like they did up to ca. 2000 or so, and that marketing what's essentially an intermediate proof of concept can help to garner market acceptance for the development as such, as well as raise funds needed for further development. The practice of launching a 'minimum viable product (MVP)' is indeed at this day and age an accepted strategy in innovative contexts, and it can (evidently!) be applied to a CN film as well.

There's something to be said for either view, and of course, in the above, I've only summarized the main points very briefly - they could be expanded and deepened extensively. Which view you choose is of course highly personal. I do want to warn against applying views based on a world that has simply ceased to exist to the present situation. So no, I can't imagine Fuji or Kodak having done something like this, and they likely wouldn't do so today, for various reasons. Harman is no Fuji or Kodak, and the world of the 2020s is not the world of the 1980s.

ChrisGalway said:
I'm looking forward to Lucky's new colour film! https://reflxlab.com/blogs/news/lucky-color-film-2025-update . I'll wager a bet that it's technically better than Phoenix.
Click to expand...
I think that's going to depend on how you look at it. Phoenix is inherently different from a regular, masked CN film. But the manufacturing quality is nearly the same as that of other Harman products. At the same time, we see that Lucky's present B&W offering suffers from severe manufacturing and QA issues that have no parallel in Harman's product offering. So it remains to be seen which will be better - and it'll depend on the quality metrics you choose.

This whole matter can be viewed in simple terms, or in a realistic manner. But the combination doesn't fly.
 

foc

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I disagree. Herman told us what they had introduced and it "did exactly what it said on the tin" Personally, I think they did a great job with their first effort and I think they wished to come to market with their "first-iteration of a new film" to show that they could do it and to gain a foothold in the colour negative market.

Since the market is starved of colour negative film, more "manufacturers" appear to pop up saying that their colour negative film will be due soon.

We will just have to wait and see but I won't be making any wagers.
 

brbo

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foc said:
I wonder if the operator placed a clear piece of orange masked film in front of the light source or between the Pheonix negative and the scan sensor, would this help reduce such a high magenta colour correction?
Click to expand...

I'll try it and see what I get.

Otherwise, I've printed Phoenix on paper without clear negative in light path and never came close to my enlargers filtration limits.
 

Film-Niko

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ChrisGalway said:
Of course you are right, but I think Harman are taking us for a ride.
Click to expand...

No, they are definitely not. Because they have always very openly and honestly explained what the Harman Phoenix project is, and what it is not.
Therefore everyone who have read their explanations attentively has known what he could realistically expect from this R&D project.
It is a long-term R&D project in which we as consumers can participate if we want to. It is just an additional option offered to us, nothing more, nothing less.

And Harman has meanwhile offered it in 120, too. And just today they start offering the next additional option: Harman Phoenix as a redscale film:

 

Agulliver

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The redscale film does appear to be Phoenix loaded "the wrong way round". Which one can view as another fun thing to try for those who enjoy experimentation or as another product one isn't interested in.

Personally I'll give this one a miss but I expect it will go down well with the folk who enjoy "effects" films and will help fill the coffers for more R&D towards a 'normal' C41 film.

Meanwhile Phoenix has gained a following and I know @koraks isn't the only person who hopes they continue to produce it long after the main C41 product has been significantly improved.

As for the Lucky film....bring it on. Competition is generally a good thing, though their B&W film does appear to suffer from quite bad emulsion/coating defects....which is something Phoenix has avoided even though Harman warned they might be present. One thing to be said for Phoenix is that it's a high quality product in terms of manufacturing and coating. Is it for everyday colour shooting? Certainly not. But then Harman never claimed it was. It is everything they said it was.
 

Agulliver

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Over on their Instagram account, Harman have confirmed that they are still working on an improved C41 film and that this Red film isn't even really a minor distraction from that work.

It's a bit of fun for those who will enjoy it. And for those of us who aren't into these kinds of film....it does zero harm.
 

Alessandro Serrao

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Plus, making Phoenix films has required some financial effort that nevertheless will resonate in other Harman products pricing. Look at the chemistry for example. Or the recent price increase...
Why I have to indirectly pay for a colour film that is halfway decent and that I will never use?
 

brbo

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Alessandro Serrao said:
Why I have to indirectly pay for a colour film that is halfway decent and that I will never use?
Click to expand...

That's the thing. You don't have to pay for it if you are not buying Phoenix.

But you would be paying for it if Harman went about making C-41 film the traditional way, "internalising" all R&D costs, that is transferring them to BW film customers.
 

brbo

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albireo said:
These are incredible! Share some 120 samples if you have them!
Click to expand...

After many years I now have a MF camera again. 1st gen. Yashica Mat from 50s and I loaded Phoenix 200 as the first test roll. So 12 (if I'm lucky) boring shots in the greyest weather...
 
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