Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

[Andrew O'Neill]

Yes true, but we are not Americans... as far as paddling away, plate tectonics is taking care of that!

 

[Ricardo Miranda]

Yes true, but we are not Americans... as far as paddling away, plate tectonics is taking care of that!

I know, part of the region where I was born is getting away to the American side. The other side is walking slowly to Europe.

 

[Ricardo Miranda]

Ricardo, you are going to ruffle a lot of feathers with your comment over "plain English" and "American English". To native speakers, there is little to no difference except for the spelling of a few words and some idioms which are not often used here.

As for pro and consumer films, there was an extensive discussion over these films and their features even within the groups doing R&D.

PE

Ron.
Only to some.
Is there really a problem in changing form "store" to "shop" and from "shipping" to "delivery"?

 

[Photo Engineer]

IDK Ricardo. I understand both of your examples. I would guess that most of us do.

PE

 

[Nzoomed]

"Outdated" is sort of the wrong word regarding our use of the original Ferrania recipes. Is grandma's recipe for chocolate cake outdated? Probably not - but maybe she used lard where we would now use a less artery-clogging substitute. More accurately, grandma's CAKE, not the recipe, may be dependent on the type of oven and bakeware she used. But grandma can only make one cake at a time in her own kitchen. The "same" cake would obviously be different if she were baking 10,000 of them in an industrial kitchen.

Using this analogy, the old Ferrania only produced the 10,000 cakes, but we're using grandma's recipe (with no lard) and grandma's kitchen!

Sorry, i wasnt really referring to the formula as "outdated" it was more the fact that using acetate base is not in itself "outdated "

At this point, I'm not sure what our precision coater can imprint on the film. I suspect it's not as sophisticated as the big coater - but you raise a good point and I'm going to ask the factory team about it!

Im pretty sure the film markings, frame numberings, DX codes etc are all done during the conversion process, I think this is actually done around the same time as the film is perforated. It is not done during the coating AFAIK, and it uses a light that is shone through a mask that contains the specific markings, in turn, exposing this on the film that will show after processing.

IIRC, you have uploaded a video of one of your perforating machines operating where you can see this happening on a sprocket wheel as the film passes through.


Wittner-cinetec uses a different (more basic, but more versatile) way of doing it as they told me it would cost them too much to get the masks made to expose the film. They use an array of flashing LEDS thats timed to the speed of the film running past, it can imprint virtually anything they want, except for the DX coding.

 

[FILM Ferrania]

Could I suggest to you to use plain English instead of American English language, please?

Hi Ricardo,
I would never pretend to communicate in anything but my native language. I'm not sure I even understand the distinctions between "plain English" and "American English."
At the same time, I do not assume every word I write is universally understood, and so if anything I write is unclear or otherwise obscured by Americanisms, please don't hesitate to ask for clarification.
At some point in the distant future, we will be able to support the software and staff necessary to deliver multilingual communications. Our Italian backers and followers are most certainly eager for that day, as am I.

 

[FILM Ferrania]

Im pretty sure the film markings, frame numberings, DX codes etc are all done during the conversion process, I think this is actually done around the same time as the film is perforated. It is not done during the coating AFAIK, and it uses a light that is shone through a mask that contains the specific markings, in turn, exposing this on the film that will show after processing.

This makes sense. Your question is obviously past the limits of my direct knowledge because I've simply never asked the Italian team about that part of the process.

 

[Nzoomed]

It's probably now a good time to point out that we think these distinctions are antiquated and really just pointless.

In yesteryear, it was of course prudent for film companies to have top-quality "pro" films that were sold primarily in proper camera shops, and lesser-quality "consumer" films that were sold in grocery stores and big-box retailers at a much lower price point...

Our films will be the best we can produce at all times. You can't really call it "pro" because pros only rarely shoot film these days. And you certainly can't call it "consumer" because that market was swallowed by smartphones. I'm generalizing, of course, but this is the reality as we see it.

I know that our factory team is eager to put Ferrania's consumer-focused past behind us and to show off what they can really do...

I wholeheartedly agree!
I was just curious to know what, if any films Ferrania had produced to compete with the likes of Kodak and Fuji at the time.

What i can say, is im pretty impressed with what ive seen shot (even on expired solaris and scotchchrome), enough to move me to buy a brick of the stuff off ebay.

Anyway, I myself would have considered most slide films such as scotchchrome as a "professional" film, especially seeing that Ferrania had achieved speeds as high as ISO800 (correct me if im wrong?) which i believe was the fastest E6 film ever produced.

I think this is where Ferrania will shine in the future, Ferrania will be at the forefront of E6 in the future, its a good niche market to be in

But as you say the whole "pro" thing has really gone out the door, i guess there are a few film "enthusiasts" who would like to consider themselves pro, I know I would like to, even though i dont consider myself a professional photographer, but analog photography is now becoming a very niche market, and has opened up to many different tastes, (lomography for example) I guess anyone shooting film

This makes sense. Your question is obviously past the limits of my direct knowledge because I've simply never asked the Italian team about that part of the process.

Thats all good, TBH, it was not something I knew alot about myself until Wittner-cinetec told me all about how they did it with their new machine

 

[MattKing]

The "pro" film vs. "consumer" film dichotomy relates to the markets that the films were designed for, and the needs of the customers in those markets.

Professional users rarely had need for film that would perform well when the same roll was used for multiple light sources, over extended periods of time, after sitting on a shelf behind the cash register in the grocery store for a season and a half.

And consumer users rarely had need for a film that would respond exactly as designed to calibrated light sources in controlled conditions.

 

[Prof_Pixel]

It was recognized that consumer films could sit in a users camera, sometimes at high temperatures, for long periods with 2 or 3 Christmas celebrations on a roll. These films were aged before packaging and any resulting color/density shifts had to be taken into account - the as coated sensitometry was not the same as the packaged sensitometry. Professional films were expected to be exposed and processed in a short time interval and were expected to be refrigerated before use. The as coated sensitometry was pretty much the same as the packaged sensitometry.

 

[mshchem]

Pretty much everything made today is professional grade. I know Fuji and Kodak still produce some cheap color negative film, that I'm sure works well for the market(s) it serves. We may not have as much to choose from as 15 years ago. I've had great results from Ilford, Kodak, Fuji, Foma, still others yet to try.

I'm really excited about the Ferrania project, passion is at the heart of all great things. The passion and endurance of the Ferrania team is second to none. I am eager to get my hands on the product, but like Grandma's cookies we have to wait until it's just right.
Best Regards Mike

 

[Nzoomed]

Pretty much everything made today is professional grade. I know Fuji and Kodak still produce some cheap color negative film, that I'm sure works well for the market(s) it serves. We may not have as much to choose from as 15 years ago. I've had great results from Ilford, Kodak, Fuji, Foma, still others yet to try.

I'm really excited about the Ferrania project, passion is at the heart of all great things. The passion and endurance of the Ferrania team is second to none. I am eager to get my hands on the product, but like Grandma's cookies we have to wait until it's just right.
Best Regards Mike

Well "professional" films not only had different storage requirements/shelf life, but most have different qualities, for example portra is designed for portrait photography, enhancing skin tones etc. In saying that, i love it for regular everyday shooting, and you can tell a noticeable difference in colour and grain with my scans when compared to regular kodak max or kodak gold for example. Of course this does not mean that a film is crap at all if its not a "professional" film.

Either way, i will be treating all Ferrania films as "professional" films that come out of the LRF, and I am excited to see what we will have available to shoot in the future

 

[Arctic amateur]

I'm not a native English speaker. I know there's a difference between British English and American English, and I understand both equally well. I can't necessarily identify a phrase as either American or British.

(I once had the pleasure of overhearing a Brit and an American explain the meaning of the phrase "I'm wearing pants and suspenders" to each other.)

 

[TheToadMen]

I'm not a native English speaker. I know there's a difference between British English and American English, and I understand both equally well. I can't necessarily identify a phrase as either American or British.

(I once had the pleasure of overhearing a Brit and an American explain the meaning of the phrase "I'm wearing pants and suspenders" to each other.)

I've spoken English in England. Does that make me a native speaker?

 

[flavio81]

Depending on the quality of our in-house stockpile of base (all of which must be hand-checked inch by inch), we may need to purchase from IPI for the short term as well. But eventually, we will put "Trixie" online and make our own.

And in the process perhaps Trixie might be profitable on its own as a source of base material for other film manufacturers!

"Outdated" is sort of the wrong word regarding our use of the original Ferrania recipes. Is grandma's recipe for chocolate cake outdated? Probably not - but maybe she used lard where we would now use a less artery-clogging substitute.

Agree with you! You know, if Kodak somehow revived the old (80s) Plus-X and the old (70s) Panatomic-X, probably everybody will be rushing to buy those OLD, OUTDATED (heh heh heh) recipes!!

 

[flavio81]

I think I'm going to ask Foma to put a "Professional" label on their films and see what is the reaction.

Foma does make "professional" version of the Fomapan 100 / 400 films. That's why the consumer version says "classic"

https://fomaobchod.cz/inshop/catalogue/products/thumbs/F100 sv Profess k.jpg

But usually the "professional" versions of such films are very similar to the "consumer" version, only the professional being pre-aged to a consistent tone balance, exposure index, etc. Except, of course, in films that were very different, such as Tri-X Professional 320 versus Tri-X 400.

I agree with Dave Bias in that today it is very misleading to call film "professional" versus "consumer", since pros went digital and consumers went cell-phone-with-lots-of-filter-to-make-your-face-look-plastic.

 

[flavio81]

PS

I think that nowadays (2016) films can perhaps be distinguished between "Standard" and "artsy/Lomo-like"... "Standard" being general purpose, all-around use films that give colors that are natural (or perhaps saturated) and neutral/slightly high/slightly soft contrast, while "Lomo-like" can be used for films that for example give wacky colors, etc. etc. Or film that has a "unique" look that suits very specific applications.

For example if Scotchchrome 640T can be revived (yay!) it would perhaps best be marketed as an "artsy" film, since the increased grain has its uses and unique "look"

 

[miha]

Different packaging only I presume. On the classic there is "Profi line" wording as well:https://www.nordfoto.de/media/images/org/foma101.jpg

 

[flavio81]

Anyway, I myself would have considered most slide films such as scotchchrome as a "professional" film, especially seeing that Ferrania had achieved speeds as high as ISO800 (correct me if im wrong?) which i believe was the fastest E6 film ever produced.

3M ColorSlide 1000 - fastest E6 daylight film
3M ScotchChrome 640T - fastest E6 tungsten balanced film

Fastest C41 film was Konica 3200, although in tests it seems it was more like a ISO 1600 film.

BTW i've used Solaris 800, 120 format, in its "lomography" repackaging and found the film just fine, bigger grain than perhaps Superia 800 (which is VERY fine grained for a 800 film), but in 120 format it worked just fine. Certainly i wouldn't be worried if it was the only C41 800-speed film available.

 

[Ricardo Miranda]

Foma does make "professional" version of the Fomapan 100 / 400 films. That's why the consumer version says "classic"

https://fomaobchod.cz/inshop/catalogue/products/thumbs/F100 sv Profess k.jpg

But usually the "professional" versions of such films are very similar to the "consumer" version, only the professional being pre-aged to a consistent tone balance, exposure index, etc. Except, of course, in films that were very different, such as Tri-X Professional 320 versus Tri-X 400.

I agree with Dave Bias in that today it is very misleading to call film "professional" versus "consumer", since pros went digital and consumers went cell-phone-with-lots-of-filter-to-make-your-face-look-plastic.

There is only one Fomapan 100 as Miha already stated.
You are seeing a different packaging.

Different packaging only I presume. On the classic there is "Profi line" wording as well:https://www.nordfoto.de/media/images/org/foma101.jpg

Thanks!
I forgot there is already a "Profi line" there as I buy 30.5m bulk rolls and there's no mention of it.

 

[Nzoomed]

And in the process perhaps Trixie might be profitable on its own as a source of base material for other film manufacturers!



Agree with you! You know, if Kodak somehow revived the old (80s) Plus-X and the old (70s) Panatomic-X, probably everybody will be rushing to buy those OLD, OUTDATED (heh heh heh) recipes!!

As I have tried to clarify, I was referring to the fact that films with an acetate base are not outdated, and the majority of films use it to this day

But yes, just because a film emulsion was discontinued, does not really make it outdated.

 

[Photo Engineer]

You would have to expect all of the deficits those older emulsions would bring with them to the product(s).

PE

 

[Nzoomed]

You would have to expect all of the deficits those older emulsions would bring with them to the product(s).

PE

Well scotchchrome was a fairly recent formula, it was made until the early 2000's.
Ektachrome was quite an old formula, but still had fairly recent revisions before it was dropped i believe.
At the end of the day its an E6 film, so i still class it as fairly modern.

 

[ericdan]

Hi Ricardo,
I would never pretend to communicate in anything but my native language. I'm not sure I even understand the distinctions between "plain English" and "American English."
At the same time, I do not assume every word I write is universally understood, and so if anything I write is unclear or otherwise obscured by Americanisms, please don't hesitate to ask for clarification.
At some point in the distant future, we will be able to support the software and staff necessary to deliver multilingual communications. Our Italian backers and followers are most certainly eager for that day, as am I.

I have no problems understanding anything on ferrania's site.

 

[Poisson Du Jour]

I agree with Dave Bias in that today it is very misleading to call film "professional" versus "consumer", since pros went digital and consumers went cell-phone-with-lots-of-filter-to-make-your-face-look-plastic.

Did they? All of them? Hook, line and sinker?
Around the world long-established analogue pros occupy a niche in a market over-saturated with patent digital crap. Hell knows how many actually use negative vs slide or slide vs negative or both.

No reason for amateurs to angle for professional-grade film (and in doing so, add to the Carp Pile) if they have no idea or no care how to expose it precisely to obtain the maximum benefit from it. This applies to the long-defunct pro-packaged Kodachrome 64 and 200 emulsions, as much as the Ektachromes and up to the present-day Fujichrome stocks. Most photographers would be doing themselves a favour by sticking with negative film instead of carping on the web about how slide film stuff up their day. To me, slide film makes my day!

EDIT: Scotchchrome was marketed as IMATION here in Australia. It disappeared completely around 2001.