Lack of repair reports for electronic SLRs: What is the cause?

[Andreas Thaler]

An electronic SLR with autofocus: really not repairable via DIY?


The longer I spend time with Minolta's first two AF cameras, the 7000 and 9000, the more I wonder why there are no DIY repair reports for these cameras on the web.

And the same goes for older electronic SLRs like the Nikon F3, the Canon F-1 New, or the Olympus OM-4. Even these veterans have their problems and can break down. And a repair would be economically worthwhile; they are high-quality devices with high market prices.


What is the reason for this lack of repair reports?

Is it the daunting electronics that supposedly cannot be repaired? Or the presumed complexity? Is there a lack of tools and equipment for it?

I don't know, because „the electronics“ are almost never the cause of failures. You simply don't get around to replacing an IC or desoldering transistors (with one exception I am aware ). Electrolytic capacitors need to be replaced frequently, but this is not a craft.

This means you don't have to deal with soldering in micro format or understand digital circuits.


These are usually problems

that can be solved with a screwdriver, tweezers, cleaning agents and relatively simple soldering tasks:

Dirty or oxidized contacts, damage from leaking battery electrolyte, loose cables, sometimes a bad solder joint, faulty LCDs, mechanical failures.

The modular design allows for interchangeable components, with replacements coming from discontinued SLRs of the same type. With restrictions, entire circuit board parts can also be replaced, this is feasible.

And the service manuals show how to disassemble such cameras. I bet it's easier than disassembling a mechanical Nikon F2.


It's a shame

because many of these excellent SLRs end up broken or thrown away.

Or is there simply too little interest in DIY repairing such cameras? I can't imagine that.

What do you think about this?

 

[paul ron]

repairing electronics diy is near impossible unless you have access to main board pcb to swap out n has the equipment to troubleshoot the electronics. also most of the electronics are propriatary designed and unmarked parts, then there is software to deal with that is rom based you cant access.

some older electronic cameras at the dawn of these cameras had standard parts like a bad capacitor that could be diy changed... the minoltas had that problem n was an easy fix. but once flex suface mounted pcbs became popular... for ged abowd it!

how do you replace a smd chip under a blob of resin? disposable cameras... they were cheap enough to replace every 5 years

now dslrs... disposable! i had a cannon the went back to the company several times and it still never worked properly after the repairs. planned obsolescence... consider them as leased cars.

 

[Andreas Thaler]

some older electronic cameras at the dawn of these cameras had standard parts like a bad capacitor that could be diy changed... the minoltas had that problem n was an easy fix. but once flex suface mounted pcbs became popular... for ged abowd it!

I can't confirm that.

For example, I replaced an entire electronic assembly on the Canon T90 because I had damaged the previous one while cleaning it. Likewise the part of the circuit board that carries the display to the housing with an IC.

how do you replace a smd chip under a blob of resin?

Expose the component with the scalpel and desolder it.


It's the usual prejudices that keep people from attempting repairs.

I'm not talking about rewriting the software on a Nikon F5, but rather tackling the same old problems that aren't defective ICs.

And I want to change that, so I regularly report on my projects here. Much more is possible than you think; you just have to try and get involved.

 

[koraks]

What is the reason for this lack of repair reports?

I think the things that you mention, all of which make sense, combined with some additional ones, such as overall high reliability and relatively younger age compared to many of their mechanical counterparts. Another contributing factor is that for some reason, people seem to like mechanical SLRs more and appear to be more willing to spend time/money on repairing them/getting them repaired. Most electronic SLR's still appear to have the aura of a cheap workhorse you pick up for nearly free at the local goodwill store. Compare for instance the desirability and price point of a Canon A1 vs a Canon EOS 50 or so.

 

[Andreas Thaler]

I think the things that you mention, all of which make sense, combined with some additional ones, such as overall high reliability and relatively younger age compared to many of their mechanical counterparts. Another contributing factor is that for some reason, people seem to like mechanical SLRs more and appear to be more willing to spend time/money on repairing them/getting them repaired. Most electronic SLR's still appear to have the aura of a cheap workhorse you pick up for nearly free at the local goodwill store. Compare for instance the desirability and price point of a Canon A1 vs a Canon EOS 50 or so.

Well, I find that a complex mechanical SLR presents a much greater challenge when it comes to troubleshooting and disassembly. I have to work through fragile and complicated components, understand their function, and maintain a steady hand throughout.

Electronically, many things are easier because signals are transmitted not through sophisticated mechanisms but through current flowing through wires. I only have to deal with the beginning and end.

I don't mean current DSLRs, but the 80s and 90s SLRs that ushered in the end of analog.

It's not the chips that are failing, but the peripherals, and that provides the opportunity to do something.

Many things aren't addressed because people have too much respect for the technology and too little confidence in themselves, which is unfounded.

 

[Andreas Thaler]

It's also my monthly call to DIY here in the forum

We need the people who are interested in prehistoric technology to ensure it's preserved as best as possible.

As we love it, or at least our old cameras

 

[ic-racer]

Even with a stash of NOS main boards, repairs can be futile if the NOS boards have developed the same faults as the ones in the cameras

 

[Andreas Thaler]

Even with a stash of NOS main boards, repairs can be futile if the NOS boards have developed the same faults as the ones in the cameras


View attachment 393695

What‘s wrong?

 

[ic-racer]

What‘s wrong?

Not sure. The common fault with the camera is the auto exposure does not work, but in manual the correct LED lights up for the speed. This is associated with failure of the battery check light and failure of the self timer. The replacement boards seem to have the same faults. For example a camera with only one of the faults developed all 3 after it got the NOS board. Swapping back to the original board and only the original fault was present. So it was not something in the camera body. Board swaps were 6 hours each. After 4 times I gave up.

I also gave up on these SL35E because even the ones with working meters and battery check lights have high speeds that fire almost randomly. That is a separate issue that is not solved by total disassembly cleaning of the individual blades.

After hearing Koraks remarks about tantelum capacitors, I looked at it again, but the faulty area does not have them.

I'd gladly send to you one of the NOS boards if you want.

 

[mshchem]

I've been using Nikon F5 cameras forever. These bodies are in nice condition, never been beat up, going strong for over 25 years. Same can be said for my F3 cameras.

I think a certain amount of any brand will not be repaired simply because they're all used and beat up. It may be cultural. I remember my friends, when I was a kid, their folks would trade in their family car after a couple years, "before it lost it's value". Not my Dad he'd run a car until the rust got up to the door handles.

Point and shoot autofocus 35mm cameras forced a lot of SLRs into a coat closet. When rediscovered 30+ years old no one will spend the effort to fix.

 

[film4Me]

Not sure. The common fault with the camera is the auto exposure does not work, but in manual the correct LED lights up for the speed. This is associated with failure of the battery check light and failure of the self timer. The replacement boards seem to have the same faults. For example a camera with only one of the faults developed all 3 after it got the NOS board. Swapping back to the original board and only the original fault was present. So it was not something in the camera body. Board swaps were 6 hours each. After 4 times I gave up.

Reject boards from the factory you can bet. Found their way out into the wider world to be sold unscrupulously on auction sites. I was a victim of a NOS Olympus XA rear door, nice door but wrong factory paint, human fingers left ugly "sweaty/oily" finger marks that only disappeared after fifteen minutes or so. Other NOS products are seconds from factories, usable but there'll be a tiny dent or scuff mark.

Nevertheless, I'm in sympathy with the OP's concern, but we must be realistic, refurbishment, and I think that's what Andreas is really talking about is only possible if good parts are available and when techs and/or tinkerers have electrical knowledge and repairs methods and tools to efficiently do the repair work.

I'm reminded of two repairs I've done in very recent years as a DIY nerd. One was an SLR with only a battery powered light meter. A wire, as thin as a human hair, broke off from one of the two cells and dangled loose. Luckily I had cheap parts cameras and just simply swapped a complete light meter works and jerks over to the faulty camera, tested it, and Bob's you're uncle. Yet another fluke of mine.

The easiest repair I ever had, was to drop two drops of lighter fluid on the stuck shutter blades in a Minolta 9, bingo results. No amount of exercising the shutter would free the blades. Very nice camera to boot, I've no doubt it would fetch top market price.

Another repair, but went pair shaped, was a Canon MC ... forget it ... but a parts camera may have been handy if enough patience and time was put into the job, swapping parts over and crossing fingers

 

[koraks]

Reject boards from the factory you can bet.

The state of Japanese industry would have been appalling if so many 'reject boards' would have been around.
We're talking about the birthplace of 6-Sigma, Kaizen etc.

 

[film4Me]

The state of Japanese industry would have been appalling if so many 'reject boards' would have been around.
We're talking about the birthplace of 6-Sigma, Kaizen etc.

Good thought. Very relevant too, if the boards were made in Japan, and weren't farmed out to Hong Kong or Singapore for manufacture.

 

[film4Me]

We need the people who are interested in prehistoric technology

Lol, does that include very early Kodak No4s'? A shutter on one I have needs new shutter blades. Before I can take some pics with it, I'm having a go at making the blades out of 0.40mm brass sheet. The old blades are not metallic and the hot Sun bulged them causing them to bind just a little in their housing, just enough to misfire frequently in the morning if the camera sat overnight.

 

[koraks]

Good thought. Very relevant too, if the boards were made in Japan, and weren't farmed out to Hong Kong or Singapore for manufacture.

Outside of Japan, the costs of non-quality would just as well be unacceptable.
Really, the chances are very slim of nonfunctional boards leaving the factory on their way to a spare parts market. Such things of course happen from time to time, but they're fairly rare due to a combination of impeding factors:
* Fairly low defect rates in assembly due to process control
* Lack of demand for defective spare parts (duh!)
* Organizational controls that prevent employees from stealing company property
* Systematic collection of defective parts leaving the assembly line for FMEA purposes and quality control, followed by destruction
Etc. etc.

The more likely scenario is that in this particular case, something in this electronic subsystem ages badly, and this affects NOS parts as well as parts that have been in active use. One (admittedly fairly random) issue that comes to mind is that in 1980s IC's, there have been problems with the wire bonding between the exterior pins and the actual silicon die, with (AFAIK) corrosion effectively breaking these connections, causing intermittent and ultimately total failure of the part. This is of course just one possible option; the issue of degrading tantalum capacitors has already been mentioned, and there are other failure conceivable failure modes.

 

[film4Me]

Outside of Japan, the costs of non-quality would just as well be unacceptable

I'm still not totally convinced. A Japanese camera made in Japan will likely be higher in quality than a Japanese camera made in Singapore, both of the same brand. In fact I have two, and the Singapore one was cheap, possibly dumped here, and the two AA batteries went from 3.12V down to 3V in no time, then the camera stopped working. I'd change the batteries and save the old ones for my battery clock, and for my mouse.

Also I'm reminded of my Apple 17" Mac, made in China I think. Vertical lines appeared on the screen after a year or two, until the whole screen was full of vertical lines. Thousands of those computers were affected, out of warranty, tough titties. Proof of how's your grandfather quality control. Apple didn't want to know about it.

 

[ic-racer]

Those Rollei SL35E PC boards are from Singapore Rollei Factory. The SL35E cameras are all form Singapore Rollei Factory also. I have been repairing Rollei electronic cameras since the 1980s and had always wished for some PC boards.

Finding the fault with the recently acquired boards is not possible with them mounted on the camera; the test points are on the under side. A very complex breadboard assembly with over 20 switches could be constructed to power up and test the boards. Someone interested can have one.

 

[Andreas Thaler]

Nevertheless, I'm in sympathy with the OP's concern, but we must be realistic, refurbishment, and I think that's what Andreas is really talking about is only possible if good parts are available and when techs and/or tinkerers have electrical knowledge and repairs methods and tools to efficiently do the repair work.

My approach is pragmatic. I fix what I can, and try to replace everything else with original spare parts from SLRs of the same type.

There are limits when adjustment values are stored on circuit boards, e.g. for the AF on the Nikon F4 and Minolta 9000 and 7000. This cannot be readjusted in a DIY manner; anyway for the 7000, Larry Lyells presented an alternative method in the C & C Troubleshooting Guide without the Minolta I/O tester, which you can probably only find at scrap yards these days.

Of course the chances are very limited, but often it is just errors that can be easily repaired.

I have only had one suspected defective IC so far which means little, but indicates the distribution of errors.

It is far too easy to be told „there's nothing to be done, electronics fault“, when in fact all you have to do is remove the battery compartment or top cover to take a look.

A recent example:

The AEL button on a Minolta 9000 AF wasn't responding. It was just the switch contact behind it that was bent, and I replaced the entire unit (counter base plate).

Or here's the main LCD on a Canon T90 which showed nonsense. In this case the controller IC below it was probably defective. I replaced the unit.

And with this Nikon MD-E winder, it was just a high-resistance contact that prevented it from working detected with the continuity tester on my multimeter. Thorough cleaning fixed it.


All three cases would probably have been thrown in the trash with the reference to „electronic damage“.

Unjustified.

 

[film4Me]

Great work. Perhaps I'll send my Bronica AEII metered finder for you to fix. I opened it up but didn't know what I was looking at, just hoping I'd see something obviously out of place or bad connection. One day I was using it, next day it simply wouldn't work. Lucky for me there was a AEIII on the auction site, so I bought that.

 

[Andreas Thaler]

Great work. Perhaps I'll send my Bronica AEII metered finder for you to fix. I opened it up but didn't know what I was looking at, just hoping I'd see something obviously out of place or bad connection. One day I was using it, next day it simply wouldn't work. Lucky for me there was a AEIII on the auction site, so I bought that.

Thanks, but better not bring it to me in Vienna. You haven't seen my box of failed repair attempts

But these cameras live on for spare parts, research and studies!

 

[Andreas Thaler]

If I can recover one of five cameras, that one is better than none

 

[film4Me]

Well you could be the one to fully document successful repairs as you go along, do you do that already?

 

[Andreas Thaler]

Well you could be the one to fully document successful repairs as you go along, do you do that already?

Yes, to a certain extent, see

Photo equipment from the 1980s: Repair projects and recommendations

I would like to bring together a selection of my previous contributions here in the hope that they will help readers with their work or inspire them to get involved in repairs. It is always worth trying to repair something, because if you do nothing, a camera or lens will definitely remain...

www.photrio.com

 

[koraks]

I'm still not totally convinced.

That's OK. I've done a lot of work in and for high-tech companies, mostly on the supply side. I understand that complexities that I'm aware of are even more of a black box to those who aren't familiar with how these industries work. The kind of indicators you mention (battery voltage drop in an old camera, LCD defects on a Chinese display) don't say as much as you believe they do. In reality, such incidents are virtually meaningless when trying to understand manufacturing quality control. Such anecdotes serve one purpose very well - perpetuate misconceptions.

 

[film4Me]

perpetuate misconceptions.

I'm aware of defects in human thinking as well. I'm also aware of the 5 1/2 years I learned about quality design and quality control in a very large factory (DeHavilland) making aircraft replacement parts and auto parts. I was one of those sloggers working machines with an eye out for quality control inspectors appearing at any moment, with measuring instruments in hand.

But where are you going with this discussion? Defective parts from factories is fact. Another one of mine was a handheld TV. I thought it was brilliant, until the screen went permanently fuzzy after a short time. This defective product made me put the brakes on buying Asian products, I was very selective after that. Did you read about 17" Apple Macs I mentioned earlier? A monumental defect there was no excuse for, except the computers were made outside of the United states, in China or Asia somewhere. I have a 17", it's tucked away waiting for a clear and precise way of fixing it to show up on the internet. I believe the multitude of contacts on the bottom of the LCD screen need to be perfectly clean which wasn't done properly in the factory. I've yet to have a go at cleaning them and see if that fixes it.