Wait, not just black-and-white—LLL is now claiming they’ll be making color peel-apart film too!B&W peel apart (if Type-55 alike) is relatively straightforward - it's mostly assembly rather than coating - the biggest technical challenges are getting pods that spread evenly and making the clip. However, others have tried and failed to make a sustainable business of it (there may have been other reasons beyond that). It's certainly more achievable (if you have manufacturing resources available) than a colour film. If they are going to do Type-55/ peel apart, I think they should also consider doing quickload/ readyload type packages of sheet film too.
LLL just dropped a huge update—they’ve successfully developed an ISO 400 emulsion designed to rival Kodak Tri-X! Even crazier, they’re planning to start official sales in June or July, with 135 film priced at just one euro per roll.
Improving sensitivity to this level within a month and achieving Kodak-tier quality? That kind of leap makes me think there must be some serious technical support from former Kodak engineers behind the scenes. Rumor has it LLL is already working on patent applications for this technology.
Honestly, I’m really excited to see how this unfolds!
Where is this coming from???
Again, even as you mention, that is very different from manufacturing film, but in that area LLL does seems to have proven themselves very advanced!
So, I haven't heard of people making photographic film as a startup or as hobbyists
Film manufacturing involves solving hundreds or thousands of 'small' issues that all translate into the final product and affect overall quality in myriad ways. Solving those issues requires fundamental knowledge in a variety of fields under the larger domains of physics, chemistry and control systems. Not only that, it requires the competence of applying that knowledge to industrial solutions in a dependable as well as economically sensible way. Mentioning things like QC and sensitizers is a bit like scratching the surface on the very tip of an iceberg. There's a while universe of complexity hiding underneath it. It's really a daunting task.What separates the simplest B&W films sold now to the most complex amateur emulsions? Quality control? Arcane sensitizers?
Indeed. For starters, how do you acquire something like this? The only examples 'alive' are highly specialized, custom-made production systems involving dozens of purpose-engineered and built machines. In most cases these are so tightly integrated with the building they sit in and the ground this is all built on that even if you were to take an existing film coating production system, you couldn't just pick it up and place it somewhere else. You'd be effectively rebuilding a very complex mechatronics factory. This kind of infrastructure is a bespoke solution; even if you manage to salvage/scavenge a few critical parts from an existing/decommissioned plant, the task of implementing those into a new production line are pretty phenomenal.I imagine it still isn't as simple as "passable emulsion + acquired film coating infrastructure = new film business"?
Yeah, I was pretty confused about this too, but LLL actually responded to these concerns in the comments.Basically, they said they’re bypassing the complex electromechanical design in manufacturing, instead relying on specialized machines and hand-coating. Interestingly, they even mentioned that hand-coating could make the film cheaper.Film manufacturing involves solving hundreds or thousands of 'small' issues that all translate into the final product and affect overall quality in myriad ways. Solving those issues requires fundamental knowledge in a variety of fields under the larger domains of physics, chemistry and control systems. Not only that, it requires the competence of applying that knowledge to industrial solutions in a dependable as well as economically sensible way. Mentioning things like QC and sensitizers is a bit like scratching the surface on the very tip of an iceberg. There's a while universe of complexity hiding underneath it. It's really a daunting task.
Btw, there are/have been some people who have done some basic film manufacturing in attics/basements. Ron Mowrey/Photo Engineer comes to mind; of course, it helped that he had good contacts with (ex-)Kodak employees and had worked there for decades, so he had a good idea of how to work around or prevent a range of problems. Another example is Jim Browning who at one point made his own matrix film for dye transfer - this is in fact a very rudimentary product, but the coating challenges are a step in the direction of coating a real film product. In both cases, the gentlemen used relatively simple, custom-made coaters that would only work with very small batches and could only coat surface areas that would not make much sense for industrial-scale production of film. For the latter, you'd have to substantially increase batch sizes, which means you'll effectively be working on a roll-to-roll basis, which means all the challenges related to synchronized production steps at high speed need to be solved. If you've ever set foot in a commercial film or paper coating plant, you'll understand the degree of complexity involved. Again, it's a universe of complexity.
they said they’re bypassing the complex electromechanical design in manufacturing, instead relying on specialized machines and hand-coating.
As for raw materials, they stated that all components are produced internally by the company.
In terms of format, the largest they plan to produce is 20×24
I assume (hope) there's a lot lost in translation in the comments you're relaying to us. As pointed out above, they don't make sense one way or another. The comments raise far more questions than they answer, and insofar as they answer anything, it's fundamentally inconsistent with the ambitions/roadmaps insofar as LLL has shared them so far.All of this info comes straight from LLL’s official comments, so it’s not some secret rumor.
Hand coating ! The film will be 1€ each but only a thousand produced a year
I think that those updates are really too advert-like… Monomer, are you in any way affiliated with LLL ?
Proper peel apart black and white film would be a wonderful thing.
LLL just dropped a huge update—they’ve successfully developed an ISO 400 emulsion designed to rival Kodak Tri-X! Even crazier, they’re planning to start official sales in June or July, with 135 film priced at just one euro per roll.
Improving sensitivity to this level within a month and achieving Kodak-tier quality?
I don't doubt the fact that LLL is presently capable of manufacturing some things to a very high level of quality, going by what I can read/see online. I've not visited their premises, I don't know what kind of competence they have, how their sourcing, R&D and manufacturing are organized, etc. But there's still that very important issue that manufacturing film and manufacturing lens assemblies and/or lens parts is just a very different ballgame. Noting the relevance of being 'advanced' suggests that it's a quantitative thing - that any organization that's good at one thing should automatically be good at another. This, of course, is not the case.
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So when a newcomer in the field, which moreover is a small market with very high barriers to entry, announces they're going to handle all this within the timeframe of a couple of months - of course this raises questions and makes people very curious as to how things will develop.
I have no connection to LLL at all, and if this was an ad, LLL has their own account here to do that.
I just happened to be learning a new language recently and came across these conflicting posts from LLL on REDnote. Honestly, some of it sounds pretty wild, so I shared it here to discuss with everyone.
All this info came from the REDnote account ID "Z107193025" — seems like it’s LLL’s owner or a key person.Can you give us a link to what LLL actually said?
Thanks
pentaxuser
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It's ironic that the one group to play this game and actually achieve something real, usable and distinguished, Ferrania, is consistently pilloried.
I know it's a giant leap like "ah, you can bake the finest cakes I've seen! can you make me a CPU?"
he latest film samples are out, and honestly, they’re nothing like what I imagined.
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