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Monomer

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LLL just dropped a huge update—they’ve successfully developed an ISO 400 emulsion designed to rival Kodak Tri-X! Even crazier, they’re planning to start official sales in June or July, with 135 film priced at just one euro per roll.
Improving sensitivity to this level within a month and achieving Kodak-tier quality? That kind of leap makes me think there must be some serious technical support from former Kodak engineers behind the scenes. Rumor has it LLL is already working on patent applications for this technology.
Honestly, I’m really excited to see how this unfolds!
 

Monomer

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B&W peel apart (if Type-55 alike) is relatively straightforward - it's mostly assembly rather than coating - the biggest technical challenges are getting pods that spread evenly and making the clip. However, others have tried and failed to make a sustainable business of it (there may have been other reasons beyond that). It's certainly more achievable (if you have manufacturing resources available) than a colour film. If they are going to do Type-55/ peel apart, I think they should also consider doing quickload/ readyload type packages of sheet film too.
Wait, not just black-and-white—LLL is now claiming they’ll be making color peel-apart film too!

If they can actually pull this off, that would be huge. Black-and-white was already exciting, but color? That’s next level. Definitely keeping a close eye on this!
 

mshchem

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LLL just dropped a huge update—they’ve successfully developed an ISO 400 emulsion designed to rival Kodak Tri-X! Even crazier, they’re planning to start official sales in June or July, with 135 film priced at just one euro per roll.
Improving sensitivity to this level within a month and achieving Kodak-tier quality? That kind of leap makes me think there must be some serious technical support from former Kodak engineers behind the scenes. Rumor has it LLL is already working on patent applications for this technology.
Honestly, I’m really excited to see how this unfolds!

Where is this coming from???
 

Monomer

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Where is this coming from???

The news comes from LLL’s official account on xiaohongshu(REDnote). I’ll attach the images here.

Really curious to see how this develops!
 

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koraks

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Again, even as you mention, that is very different from manufacturing film, but in that area LLL does seems to have proven themselves very advanced!

I don't doubt the fact that LLL is presently capable of manufacturing some things to a very high level of quality, going by what I can read/see online. I've not visited their premises, I don't know what kind of competence they have, how their sourcing, R&D and manufacturing are organized, etc. But there's still that very important issue that manufacturing film and manufacturing lens assemblies and/or lens parts is just a very different ballgame. Noting the relevance of being 'advanced' suggests that it's a quantitative thing - that any organization that's good at one thing should automatically be good at another. This, of course, is not the case.

So, I haven't heard of people making photographic film as a startup or as hobbyists

Because it's bloody damn difficult to do.

What separates the simplest B&W films sold now to the most complex amateur emulsions? Quality control? Arcane sensitizers?
Film manufacturing involves solving hundreds or thousands of 'small' issues that all translate into the final product and affect overall quality in myriad ways. Solving those issues requires fundamental knowledge in a variety of fields under the larger domains of physics, chemistry and control systems. Not only that, it requires the competence of applying that knowledge to industrial solutions in a dependable as well as economically sensible way. Mentioning things like QC and sensitizers is a bit like scratching the surface on the very tip of an iceberg. There's a while universe of complexity hiding underneath it. It's really a daunting task.

Btw, there are/have been some people who have done some basic film manufacturing in attics/basements. Ron Mowrey/Photo Engineer comes to mind; of course, it helped that he had good contacts with (ex-)Kodak employees and had worked there for decades, so he had a good idea of how to work around or prevent a range of problems. Another example is Jim Browning who at one point made his own matrix film for dye transfer - this is in fact a very rudimentary product, but the coating challenges are a step in the direction of coating a real film product. In both cases, the gentlemen used relatively simple, custom-made coaters that would only work with very small batches and could only coat surface areas that would not make much sense for industrial-scale production of film. For the latter, you'd have to substantially increase batch sizes, which means you'll effectively be working on a roll-to-roll basis, which means all the challenges related to synchronized production steps at high speed need to be solved. If you've ever set foot in a commercial film or paper coating plant, you'll understand the degree of complexity involved. Again, it's a universe of complexity.

I imagine it still isn't as simple as "passable emulsion + acquired film coating infrastructure = new film business"?
Indeed. For starters, how do you acquire something like this? The only examples 'alive' are highly specialized, custom-made production systems involving dozens of purpose-engineered and built machines. In most cases these are so tightly integrated with the building they sit in and the ground this is all built on that even if you were to take an existing film coating production system, you couldn't just pick it up and place it somewhere else. You'd be effectively rebuilding a very complex mechatronics factory. This kind of infrastructure is a bespoke solution; even if you manage to salvage/scavenge a few critical parts from an existing/decommissioned plant, the task of implementing those into a new production line are pretty phenomenal.

Then there's of course the whole business around it; being a successful manufacturer involves more than a product and a production system. The product needs to be packaged, shipped out, there needs to be a QC system built around it, choices w.r.t. to R&D and NPD need to be made and financed so there need to be product and technology roadmaps, there'll have to be maintenance and repairs, marketing & sales need to ensure the right products are selected for manufacture at the right quantities and the right price, supply chain partners both upstream and downstream need to be managed, there needs to be a sourcing & purchasing function for all the stuff that's needed, then you have your basic corporate infrastructure like HR, Finance etc. Of course, some of the generic parts LLL probably has in place in some form for their present activities, but a lot of what I mention (which is not an exhaustive list) is very specific to the product and market, and film is really a different product for a different market than lenses.

So when a newcomer in the field, which moreover is a small market with very high barriers to entry, announces they're going to handle all this within the timeframe of a couple of months - of course this raises questions and makes people very curious as to how things will develop.
 

Monomer

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Film manufacturing involves solving hundreds or thousands of 'small' issues that all translate into the final product and affect overall quality in myriad ways. Solving those issues requires fundamental knowledge in a variety of fields under the larger domains of physics, chemistry and control systems. Not only that, it requires the competence of applying that knowledge to industrial solutions in a dependable as well as economically sensible way. Mentioning things like QC and sensitizers is a bit like scratching the surface on the very tip of an iceberg. There's a while universe of complexity hiding underneath it. It's really a daunting task.

Btw, there are/have been some people who have done some basic film manufacturing in attics/basements. Ron Mowrey/Photo Engineer comes to mind; of course, it helped that he had good contacts with (ex-)Kodak employees and had worked there for decades, so he had a good idea of how to work around or prevent a range of problems. Another example is Jim Browning who at one point made his own matrix film for dye transfer - this is in fact a very rudimentary product, but the coating challenges are a step in the direction of coating a real film product. In both cases, the gentlemen used relatively simple, custom-made coaters that would only work with very small batches and could only coat surface areas that would not make much sense for industrial-scale production of film. For the latter, you'd have to substantially increase batch sizes, which means you'll effectively be working on a roll-to-roll basis, which means all the challenges related to synchronized production steps at high speed need to be solved. If you've ever set foot in a commercial film or paper coating plant, you'll understand the degree of complexity involved. Again, it's a universe of complexity.
Yeah, I was pretty confused about this too, but LLL actually responded to these concerns in the comments.Basically, they said they’re bypassing the complex electromechanical design in manufacturing, instead relying on specialized machines and hand-coating. Interestingly, they even mentioned that hand-coating could make the film cheaper.

As for raw materials, they stated that all components are produced internally by the company.They also added that they’ve mastered multiple photosensitive emulsion technologies—not just T-grain. In terms of format, the largest they plan to produce is 20×24, and for sensitivity, they’ve already reached ISO 400 with a promise to push it to ISO 1600+.

All of this info comes straight from LLL’s official comments, so it’s not some secret rumor. If they can actually deliver on these claims, this could be a game-changer!
 

GabrielC

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Hand coating ! The film will be 1€ each but only a thousand produced a year :smile:
I think that those updates are really too advert-like… Monomer, are you in any way affiliated with LLL ?
 

koraks

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they said they’re bypassing the complex electromechanical design in manufacturing, instead relying on specialized machines and hand-coating.

This doesn't make sense. Either they're hand-coating, which I can see work for early lab samples, but will be a non-starter for volume production due to cost and quality concerns. Or they're going to do machine coating for production purposes, but in this case there will be considerable mechatronics engineering involved. Also, if they're using 'specialized machines' this implies 'complex electromechanical' design as you put it, which is unavoidable if you're going to machine-coat film. So frankly, this explanation is tautological as well as contradictory at the same time. This in itself is quite an achievement, btw; it's quite a feat to raise so many fundamental issues in so few words.

As for raw materials, they stated that all components are produced internally by the company.

Again, a misrepresentation of facts. They're not manufacturing silver, or butchering pigs to produce gelatin. They purchase materials; as in any sourcing operation, the question is at what aggregation level you make the sourcing decision. However, sourcing is not the main bottleneck in this nascent operation. For now, it's the least of their worries; it'll become more relevant as time passes and economic factors become more prominent, as well as long-term availability issues.

In terms of format, the largest they plan to produce is 20×24

If this will be hand-coated sheets they're going to make, this means they're not going to be able to manufacture regular 135/36 cassettes since the film length is considerably longer than 24". Again, it doesn't add up.

All of this info comes straight from LLL’s official comments, so it’s not some secret rumor.
I assume (hope) there's a lot lost in translation in the comments you're relaying to us. As pointed out above, they don't make sense one way or another. The comments raise far more questions than they answer, and insofar as they answer anything, it's fundamentally inconsistent with the ambitions/roadmaps insofar as LLL has shared them so far.
 

Monomer

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Hand coating ! The film will be 1€ each but only a thousand produced a year :smile:
I think that those updates are really too advert-like… Monomer, are you in any way affiliated with LLL ?

I have no connection to LLL at all, and if this was an ad, LLL has their own account here to do that.

I just happened to be learning a new language recently and came across these conflicting posts from LLL on REDnote. Honestly, some of it sounds pretty wild, so I shared it here to discuss with everyone.😊
 

OrientPoint

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Proper peel apart black and white film would be a wonderful thing.

Back in 2016 when Fuji discontinued the last pack film (FP100c) CatLabs announced "WE WILL PRODUCE PACK FILM!" alongside a photograph of some machinery covered by a sheet.

9 years later I'm still waiting for that magic machine to start churning out new packs for my Land camera. It pains me to say it, but this current round rings similar to me.
 

mshchem

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I think there's something going on. We will need to see what "develops" 😊 . I wish LLL luck. If these guys could produce a high-quality black and white peel apart print film, two versions, regular for prints, and p/n film. Pack and 4x5 sheets that would be awesome!

With the weird things going on with tariffs and all, China is going to need to produce films and papers for domestic consumption as well as for the global market.

Definitely more exciting to me than RED 😊
 

sednoid

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How strange. It definitely seems too good to be true. Completely against everything we know about the industry.
 

pentaxuser

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LLL just dropped a huge update—they’ve successfully developed an ISO 400 emulsion designed to rival Kodak Tri-X! Even crazier, they’re planning to start official sales in June or July, with 135 film priced at just one euro per roll.
Improving sensitivity to this level within a month and achieving Kodak-tier quality?

Can you give us a link to what LLL actually said?

Thanks

pentaxuser
 

Crysist

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I don't doubt the fact that LLL is presently capable of manufacturing some things to a very high level of quality, going by what I can read/see online. I've not visited their premises, I don't know what kind of competence they have, how their sourcing, R&D and manufacturing are organized, etc. But there's still that very important issue that manufacturing film and manufacturing lens assemblies and/or lens parts is just a very different ballgame. Noting the relevance of being 'advanced' suggests that it's a quantitative thing - that any organization that's good at one thing should automatically be good at another. This, of course, is not the case.

...

Thank you for all the info koraks! By the way, I didn't mean to sound too ignorant there lol, I did merely want to put the question out for someone to fill in the blanks, so I greatly appreciate it! But yeah, I know it's a giant leap like "ah, you can bake the finest cakes I've seen! can you make me a CPU?". Something of that nature. Entirely orthogonal processes.

So when a newcomer in the field, which moreover is a small market with very high barriers to entry, announces they're going to handle all this within the timeframe of a couple of months - of course this raises questions and makes people very curious as to how things will develop.

It will be very interesting to see! Especially if there's any surprises.
 

warden

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I have no connection to LLL at all, and if this was an ad, LLL has their own account here to do that.

I just happened to be learning a new language recently and came across these conflicting posts from LLL on REDnote. Honestly, some of it sounds pretty wild, so I shared it here to discuss with everyone.😊

Does LLL have an official account on Rednote? I haven’t found it yet, but I see a bunch of rumors like this.

1739742542380.png
 
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I don't know. This looks pretty promising:

 

Monomer

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Can you give us a link to what LLL actually said?

Thanks

pentaxuser
All this info came from the REDnote account ID "Z107193025" — seems like it’s LLL’s owner or a key person.

I couldn’t find a way to share them from the app.

I’ll attach a few screenshots from their previous posts too.
 

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Monomer

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The latest film samples are out, and honestly, they’re nothing like what I imagined. At this point, I don’t have any expectations left.
 

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...

It's ironic that the one group to play this game and actually achieve something real, usable and distinguished, Ferrania, is consistently pilloried.

There was quite some excitement for Ferrania when they started, but when it took longer than expected... for some everything they accomplished wasn`t enough.
 

mshchem

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If they have capital and leadership it is certainly possible. Black and white film and receiver can be sourced, everything can be sourced except for the equipment and expertise ( more so old Polaroid people).
 

koraks

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I know it's a giant leap like "ah, you can bake the finest cakes I've seen! can you make me a CPU?"

I think that's actually an excellent comparison!

he latest film samples are out, and honestly, they’re nothing like what I imagined.

They look just as you'd expect from hand-made film. Most of the defects are little bubbles, which is to be expected under these conditions. Nothing to worry about for lab examples; just test around the bubbles. With an eye to industrial production, it's one in a series of many, many of the little problems they'll have to solve that I alluded to before.

Don't forget that a company like FujiFILM is called that ('film') because they're so darn good at making thin layers of stuff. And making thin layers with great consistency and great quality is actually pretty darn challenging to. It just happens that photographic film is exactly that - very thin layers, with very good consistency. Fuji built a multi-billion corporation on that trick. It took them more than a handful of PhD's and a year's worth of R&D to get there. Evidently, they, together with Kodak, Agfa etc. were on the leading (bleeding) edge back then, and surely, there are many shortcuts that can now be taken on the basis of published knowledge and effects we so much better understand today and can model theoretically instead of doing endless experiments. But even so, it's still a fairly complex trick to master.
 

pentaxuser

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Thanks Monomer for the LLL reports. It all positively screams at me that someone or entity that wants to make us think he/it has a lot more to offer than he/it has to actually sell as of now

It reminds me of the kind of approach that says "The impossible we do today but a miracle takes about 24 hours longer"

pentaxuser
 
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