New HC-110 Formula

[koraks]

So mama don't take my Xtol away.................... They mess with my Xtol and I'm outta here! I'll be rolling my own something and it won't have anything to do with the color yellow.

I've been using instant mytol as of late and I'm very pleased with it. So much so that I actually prefer it over pyrocat at the moment...

 

[alanrockwood]

What is the function of SO2 in HC-110?

What is the function of HBr in HC-110?

What is the function of DEA in HC-110?

I ask those questions to introduce discussion on the topic. I asume that the SO2 performs two functions. One would be to be a source of sulfite ions in the reconstituted developer (e.g. dilution B would be an example of a reconstituted developer.). The other could be as part of the pH control of the reconstititued developer since SO2 is acidic. It's a stronger acid than acetic aced but a weaker acid than trifluoroacetic acid.

I assume the HBr would also serve two functions. One would be to supply Bromine ions for the reconstituted developer to serve as a restrainer. The other could be as part of the pH control of the developer.

I assume that DEA functions as a non-aqueous solvent in the concentrated developer. In the reconstituted developer it would be part of the pH control system. Also, I believe it can complex with silver ions, so it might also play a roll in the granularity of the developed film.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Correct, IMHO.

 

[John Wiegerink]

I've been using instant mytol as of late and I'm very pleased with it. So much so that I actually prefer it over pyrocat at the moment...

I made myself up some Mytol a couple years ago and it worked just fine, but then I went the Xtol replenish route and just kept using Xtol after that. I do owe much to HC-110 since it was the very first developer I had ever used. It got me started I guess.

 

[Fujicaman1957]

I made myself up some Mytol a couple years ago and it worked just fine, but then I went the Xtol replenish route and just kept using Xtol after that. I do owe much to HC-110 since it was the very first developer I had ever used. It got me started I guess.

Hmmm...so HC-110 is a gateway drug for photographers?

 

[John Wiegerink]

Hmmm...so HC-110 is a gateway drug for photographers?

Yes, and I only took one little sniff. It just shows how potent HC-110 is. So, sniff with caution.

 

[jim appleyard]

My order of two bottles of the "old" (at least old Cat #) arrived....not thick at all, yellow water.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

These are times when one wishes there were simple accelerated life testing methods for estimating the expected storage life of a developer.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

What is the function of SO2 in HC-110?

What is the function of HBr in HC-110?

What is the function of DEA in HC-110?

I ask those questions to introduce discussion on the topic. I asume that the SO2 performs two functions. One would be to be a source of sulfite ions in the reconstituted developer (e.g. dilution B would be an example of a reconstituted developer.). The other could be as part of the pH control of the reconstititued developer since SO2 is acidic. It's a stronger acid than acetic aced but a weaker acid than trifluoroacetic acid.

I assume the HBr would also serve two functions. One would be to supply Bromine ions for the reconstituted developer to serve as a restrainer. The other could be as part of the pH control of the developer.

I assume that DEA functions as a non-aqueous solvent in the concentrated developer. In the reconstituted developer it would be part of the pH control system. Also, I believe it can complex with silver ions, so it might also play a roll in the granularity of the developed film.

What I don't understand is how a functionally identical developer can be created if all these things are different. Especially with respect to solvent properties and granularity of the developed film. I know a decent amount of chemistry but not that much about developing developers and I would love to hear more from knowledgeable people about how two different things could create the exact same result.

 

[silveror0]

I have a query into B&H to find out how two one-liter bottles can have such different package weights:

MFR #5010541 (one liter) Package weight = 2.865 lb

MFR # 1058692 2019 version (one liter) Package weight = 18.135 lb

My question has been deferred to the "web people." I think they're not the same as the "mole people."

 

[AgX]

These are times when one wishes there were simple accelerated life testing methods for estimating the expected storage life of a developer.

There is for films and papers. Thus one could design such test too.
But with all these longevity tests there remains some crystal ball characteristic.

 

[alanrockwood]

What I don't understand is how a functionally identical developer can be created if all these things are different. Especially with respect to solvent properties and granularity of the developed film. I know a decent amount of chemistry but not that much about developing developers and I would love to hear more from knowledgeable people about how two different things could create the exact same result.

Are you referring to the new HC-110 compared to the old HC-110?

I wonder a related question. Could the new HC-110 give the same results under a limited set of conditions, but not all?

 

[Photo Engineer]

There is a test for developer keeping, but if it only gives a specific expiration date to a batch this says nothing about its keeping beyond that date. And, long keeping was what HC110 was known for.

It is possible to design 2 developers to give the same characteristics to another and have them both have vastly different formulas. I have often found this will only work with one emulsion, or with one coating run of an emulsion. It remains to be seen what this new HC110 does.

Sulfur Dioxide is equal to Sulfite in HC110 and acts as a preservative. It also acts as a Silver Halide solvent. The HBr adds some Bromide to the developer to act as a restrainer. The DEA is both a solvent and an alkali like Carbonate or Borate.

PE

 

[Grim Tuesday]

The similarity with respect to only one stock spooks me. Does Alaris still employ research chemists or is it likely this formula is "from the archive?"

 

[mgb74]

My order of two bottles of the "old" (at least old Cat #) arrived....not thick at all, yellow water.

Would someone verify that the old catalog number of the thick yellow syrup HC-110 is 5010541? When I last bought it, I decanted the stock into smaller amber glass bottles and recycled the original container. I just bought 3 bottles to ensure I have enough for the amount of Tri-X I have in the freezer and want to ensure I'm getting the old formula. I doubt that the new formulation is even in the general supply chain, yet, but thought I'd verify anyway.

Thanks!

No, it's not. I ordered this last Friday: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/926496-REG/kodak_5010541_hc_110_professional_developer.html

What arrived (today) is a squarish container with the viscosity of water, labeled Cat 5010541, with an expiration of 2021-02. It's what I ordered, but not what I expected.

As opposed to this, which is the new version: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...1058692_professional_hc_110_1l_developer.html

 

[Grim Tuesday]

No, it's not. I ordered this last Friday: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/926496-REG/kodak_5010541_hc_110_professional_developer.html

What arrived (today) is a squarish container with the viscosity of water, labeled Cat 5010541, with an expiration of 2021-02. It's what I ordered, but not what I expected.

As opposed to this, which is the new version: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...1058692_professional_hc_110_1l_developer.html

Is it "made in Germany" or "made in USA"?

Also is it watery water or thick water?

 

[mgb74]

Is it "made in Germany" or "made in USA"?

Also is it watery water or thick water?

Made in Germany.

I haven't opened it yet, but as I agitate the container slightly, I would guess slightly thicker than pure water, but not as thick as "good old" HC-110,

 

[jim appleyard]

Is it "made in Germany" or "made in USA"?

Also is it watery water or thick water?

Mine is same exp date as MGB's. It's thicker water, but nowhere near as thick as it used to be, and made in Germany.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

In that case, I have some of that version that I got from B&H in late June. I processed about ten rolls in it, Delta 400, Foma 400 and Tri-X. All were with my old times and temps and all were satisfactory, and about what I was expecting. Though obviously, I didn't look at it through a microscope.

I actually made a thread about it then but no one else had seen any of it or heard of any changes so it didn't go anywhere. It is much easier to draw into a syringe. I like that about it!

Now I'm kinda confused what to do with this bottle. I've been meaning to run some tests to see what my speed is for different films in hc110, but I don't know if this is the new stuff (but made my tetanal) or old stuff or totally different stuff.

 

[markjwyatt]

Based opn recent comments I checked what I bought (March of 2019). It is the Professional HC110, Made in Germany, pretty thick (never used it before so no means to compare), but says it expires 2020-08! Not sure how long Freestyle had it, or if Kodak [Alaris] is just uber-conservative on expiration dates. I thought I was buying the "Classic" HC110, but am not sure at this point.

Just to get an idea of viscosity- I have the 1 liter bottle bottle. When I turn it upside down (full), the primary bubble follows the turning (i.e., by the time I am turned 180 degrees, it is already in place), but a secondary bubble appears and takes about 1 second to travel from the neck to the bottle's bottom (which is now the top relative to gravity, i.e., the bottle is upside down). The secondary bubble is around 6-8mm diameter.

 

[NB23]

The similarity with respect to only one stock spooks me. Does Alaris still employ research chemists or is it likely this formula is "from the archive?"

It has been said far too many times: Alaris has nothing to do with it. Think of Alaris in charge of the marketing alone.

 

[NB23]

Guys, please keep in thought that Ilfotec-HC is

-More watery than “good old HC110”
-Less viscous that “good old HC110”. I’d say that “good old HC-110” was double thicker than Ilfotec-HC.
-Is yellow and never turns reddish, always stays yellow
-Is more expensive than HC-110
-Has never had an expiry date on the container.
-Has a nutty fragrance and is excellent all around.

This being said, all of the above doesn’t refrain Ilfotec-HC of expiring (no expiry) and it seems that the “new” HC-110 is getting closer to Ilfotec-hc

 

[Tom Kershaw]

I haven't used Ilfotec-HC for about 10 years but recall it is a fairly vicious solution / concentrate. Perhaps I should have a look at my old stock, it might still work... HC-110 (old style) must be incredibly thick although I've never used it.

 

[NB23]

I haven't used Ilfotec-HC for about 10 years but recall it is a fairly vicious solution / concentrate. Perhaps I should have a look at my old stock, it might still work... HC-110 (old style) must be incredibly thick although I've never used it.

Please see of your old ilfotec stock is still yellow. It seems it never turns reddish as hc-110 does.

And check if there is any expiry date on your bottle.

After all, less viscosity doesn’t mean less durable...

 

[markjwyatt]

Please see of your old ilfotec stock is still yellow. It seems it never turns reddish as hc-110 does.

And check if there is any expiry date on your bottle.

After all, less viscosity doesn’t mean less durable...

In general perhaps not, but for HC110, less viscosity is interpreted as no (less) water and thus less ionic activity that degrades the developer.