Poor Man's Thread (Post your money-saving tips here)

[Ariston]

If you are going to use vinegar that dilute, try using stop bath that dilute.
For me it ends up being cheaper than the vinegar!

Really? Vinegar is under $1.00 per jug here. I'll have to check stop bath again. I have to have stop bath shipped, too...

I'm interested to know the price of vinegar in Canada.

 

[Agulliver]

I think they are very silly if they are practising tax evasion (non-collection of Vat). It is illegal and they leave themselves open to a full tax audit and penalties.

I have been in business long enough to know that any tax evasion will come back to haunt you and not worth it in the end. (In my country the Revenu have very extensive powers)

Tax avoidance is a different matter and is to be encouraged.

Indeed it is against the law and morally questionable....I'm passing on the info and people can choose whether to "take advantage" of this. If you buy from them with a card, you pay VAT as usual and their prices are pretty keen in the first place.

 

[removed account4]

Again, I use MY ambient room temp which is about 80F. This gives me reasonable times for most films. Try, at that temp, about ten minutes for Tri-X. If you use a colder temp, like 72 F, try 15 minutes for Tri-X. Do clip tests to zero onto what you find most comfortable. If these times turn out to be too long, simply dilute maybe 1 + 19 to get the shorter time. Dektol is very, very flexible. - David Lyga

yeah i agree dektol and ansco 130 are very flexible and make absolutely beautiful negatives. i hadn't ever dilute it that much before for fear of not enough developer and too much water
i have memories of xtol sudden death syndrome ( XSDS ) from years ago when kodak published very dilute developer recommendations... i usually want to get my devleopment over with fast
so i go 1:6 for 7 or 8 minutes. expired film i don't want developing for too long so i opt for strong dilutions and short times. i haven't done the press photographer special which was stock and stand for 3 minutes...

ariston, i don't use stop bath at all, i use plain water and it saves me the hassle of an extra chemical to deal with and it has saved me a few dollars over the years.

 

[Ariston]

ariston, i don't use stop bath at all, i use plain water and it saves me the hassle of an extra chemical to deal with and it has saved me a few dollars over the years.

I've heard people do this, John. Have you used water for a long time - looking back at older negatives, is there any long-term effect? If not, I wonder why manufacturers recommend it. Maybe a holdover from older emulsions?

 

[Sirius Glass]

If you are going to use vinegar that dilute, try using stop bath that dilute.
For me it ends up being cheaper than the vinegar!

So true.

Really? Vinegar is under $1.00 per jug here. I'll have to check stop bath again. I have to have stop bath shipped, too...

I'm interested to know the price of vinegar in Canada.

Come on, stop bath is so damned cheap!

yeah i agree dektol and ansco 130 are very flexible and make absolutely beautiful negatives. i hadn't ever dilute it that much before for fear of not enough developer and too much water
i have memories of xtol sudden death syndrome ( XSDS ) from years ago when kodak published very dilute developer recommendations... i usually want to get my devleopment over with fast
so i go 1:6 for 7 or 8 minutes. expired film i don't want developing for too long so i opt for strong dilutions and short times. i haven't done the press photographer special which was stock and stand for 3 minutes...

ariston, i don't use stop bath at all, i use plain water and it saves me the hassle of an extra chemical to deal with and it has saved me a few dollars over the years.

Come on, stop bath is so damned cheap!

 

[mshchem]

Stay off the Darkroom section of Ebay.

 

[pentaxuser]

Indeed it is against the law and morally questionable....I'm passing on the info and people can choose whether to "take advantage" of this. If you buy from them with a card, you pay VAT as usual and their prices are pretty keen in the first place.

I think that some retailers quote prices with and without VAT as some customers are exempt from paying it directly. It is likely that the assistant simply failed to notice that he was using the "without VAT" list. So just a mistake.

Such things happen and I hope this clears up what I think is likely to have happened and we can move on.

pentaxuser

 

[foc]

I think that some retailers quote prices with and without VAT as some customers are exempt from paying it directly. It is likely that the assistant simply failed to notice that he was using the "without VAT" list. So just a mistake.

Such things happen and I hope this clears up what I think is likely to have happened and we can move on.

pentaxuser

I am afraid it is not just a mistake and these things don't just happen.

In the EU, a retailer must display the price including Vat. The final stage of the sale is to the consumer who must pay the Vat. The only time a purchase can be exempt from Vat is if the purchaser is from outside the jurisdiction of the seller, and supplies his Vat number to the vendor.

There can be no vat exemption for a cash sale (unless the sale takes place in a vat exempt jurisdiction)

I don't wish to disrupt the discussion but as a business owner I have strong views on tax evasion which is illegal.

 

[removed account4]

I've heard people do this, John. Have you used water for a long time - looking back at older negatives, is there any long-term effect? If not, I wonder why manufacturers recommend it. Maybe a holdover from older emulsions?

nope no problems whatsoever. been doing this since about 1988 no ill effects. i didn't know about doing this until i started doing apprentice work for a lady who was trained in the 20s/30s and
her tank line ( 5x7 sheets ) had no stop and i asked her why, she said she hadn't ever used stop and didn't plan on starting. i sometimes would print her film she developed in the 30s/40s , they looked PERFECT. i don't miss its evil stench...

 

[Bronson Dugnutt]

nope no problems whatsoever. been doing this since about 1988 no ill effects. i didn't know about doing this until i started doing apprentice work for a lady who was trained in the 20s/30s and
her tank line ( 5x7 sheets ) had no stop and i asked her why, she said she hadn't ever used stop and didn't plan on starting. i sometimes would print her film she developed in the 30s/40s , they looked PERFECT. i don't miss its evil stench...

In my limited experience, the only time I've found an acid stop necessary is when developing color films. The multiple layers of emulsion aren't sufficiently neutralized by a water-only stop bath and thus leads to severe color shifts when using separate bleach and fix steps.

I imagine using a very concentrated developer to push B&W film (as per the pre-digital press days) could conceivably benefit from a hard acid stop; but I don't think those are the conditions most of us are working in these days.

 

[Ariston]

Come on, stop bath is so damned cheap!

Sirius, I think you are lost. This is the POOR MAN'S thread. Being cheap is what we do.

 

[MattKing]

Okay, let's talk about saving money with stop bath, and we will use Kodak Indicator stop bath as the example, because it is essentially concentrated vinegar with an indicator added.
The Kodak bottle is 16 ounces, and if you dilute it as directed it makes 32 quarts of working solution.
Freestyle sells it for $6.99 US plus tax and shipping - lets say $8.00 US (assuming one buys it with other items).
I use two US quarts per printing session, although if it is dilutes as directed, two quarts will usually work fine for more than one session, if they aren't separated by more than a couple of days. That works out to $0.50 per printing session (or better).
Store vinegar is usually about 5% acetic acid, so you would normally dilute it 1 + 2 to get the acetic acid to the same concentration as the Kodak version.
If Ariston is paying $1.00 for a gallon of vinegar - which is about half what we pay up here, for the cheapest versions - than once that is diluted 1 + 2, he will end up at twelve quarts of working strength stop bath. If one uses two quarts per session, that works out to $0.16 per session - slightly less expensive that the stop bath.
But wait, there is more! .
My storage space for chemicals is at a premium. It is a lot easier for me to store one relatively tiny 16 ounce bottle than a gallon jug.
Why might you save even more if you use indicator stop bath vs. vinegar? Because you can reasonably rely on the indicator to assist you in maximizing your use. I would be much more likely to replace a vinegar based stop bath too early because it lacks an indicator.
And as for using water instead of stop bath:
1) if it isn't a running water bath (which would be difficult for me to establish in my darkroom) it is much less effective at stopping development promptly; and
2) if it isn't a running water bath (which would be difficult for me to establish in my darkroom), it will inevitably lead to there being much greater developer contamination of fixer. Fixer contaminated by developer is both less effective and has much less fixing capacity. Which leads to using more fixer, and fixer is more expensive than stop bath, which means one spends more money.

 

[Bronson Dugnutt]

Fixer contaminated by developer is both less effective and has much less fixing capacity. Which leads to using more fixer, and fixer is more expensive than stop bath, which means one spends more money.

Acidic fixer is more effective/stable than alkaline fixer yeah? Bbut my stain ;(

Any word on how an acid chrome alum stop may impact a sodium thiosulfate-based fix?

 

[Helios 1984]

Come on, stop bath is so damned cheap!

Must be good to be rich, I bet you can afford to fuel with super all the time and make caffenol with Kopi luwak beans.

 

[removed account4]

Okay, let's talk about saving money with stop bath, and we will use Kodak Indicator stop bath as the example, because it is essentially concentrated vinegar with an indicator added.
The Kodak bottle is 16 ounces, and if you dilute it as directed it makes 32 quarts of working solution.
Freestyle sells it for $6.99 US plus tax and shipping - lets say $8.00 US (assuming one buys it with other items).
I use two US quarts per printing session, although if it is dilutes as directed, two quarts will usually work fine for more than one session, if they aren't separated by more than a couple of days. That works out to $0.50 per printing session (or better).
Store vinegar is usually about 5% acetic acid, so you would normally dilute it 1 + 2 to get the acetic acid to the same concentration as the Kodak version.
If Ariston is paying $1.00 for a gallon of vinegar - which is about half what we pay up here, for the cheapest versions - than once that is diluted 1 + 2, he will end up at twelve quarts of working strength stop bath. If one uses two quarts per session, that works out to $0.16 per session - slightly less expensive that the stop bath.
But wait, there is more! .
My storage space for chemicals is at a premium. It is a lot easier for me to store one relatively tiny 16 ounce bottle than a gallon jug.
Why might you save even more if you use indicator stop bath vs. vinegar? Because you can reasonably rely on the indicator to assist you in maximizing your use. I would be much more likely to replace a vinegar based stop bath too early because it lacks an indicator.
And as for using water instead of stop bath:
1) if it isn't a running water bath (which would be difficult for me to establish in my darkroom) it is much less effective at stopping development promptly; and
2) if it isn't a running water bath (which would be difficult for me to establish in my darkroom), it will inevitably lead to there being much greater developer contamination of fixer. Fixer contaminated by developer is both less effective and has much less fixing capacity. Which leads to using more fixer, and fixer is more expensive than stop bath, which means one spends more money.

Matt
While it defies your logic I would rather not have an extra chemical to deal with, I have not noticed changing out my fixer anytime sooner and I don't mind my nose not tingling when
pulling tap water out of the nozzle to fill the tray I'm glad you use stop, or vinegar and I wouldn't suggest stopping but I don't think I will purchase any stop any time soon.

peace,
John

 

[RalphLambrecht]

I think they are very silly if they are practising tax evasion (non-collection of Vat). It is illegal and they leave themselves open to a full tax audit and penalties.

I have been in business long enough to know that any tax evasion will come back to haunt you and not worth it in the end. (In my country the Revenu have very extensive powers)

Tax avoidance is a different matter and is to be encouraged.

tax is a form of legalized theft.

 

[firemachine69]

tax is a form of legalized theft.

Where's the "like" button when you really need it?

(PS - I work for the government, but I know who pays for the bread-and-butter.)

 

[Sirius Glass]

Must be good to be rich, I bet you can afford to fuel with super all the time and make caffenol with Kopi luwak beans.

I use regular gas and I do not drink coffee. And stop bath is the cheapest photo chemical except for PhotoFlo.

 

[MattKing]

tax is a form of legalized theft.

Actually, if it is legalized, than the correct word is "conversion" rather than "theft".
Taxation is one of the costs of supporting a civilized society.
The questions important to me are how well are the monies being used, how prudent are the uses it is being put to, and could the same or similar benefits be obtained for less?
Sort of like the question about the cost of using stop bath.

 

[Sirius Glass]

tax is a form of legalized theft.

Taxes are necessary for operating the government. It is just the cost of doing business, much like using stop bath.

 

[removed account4]

Taxes are necessary for operating the government. It is just the cost of doing business, much like using stop bath.

the difference is the government won't work and public services will shut down without paying for them and prints and films are just fine without stop bath they have nothing in common other than they are in this thread.

maybe you need to trade in your stop bath for a newer model ?

 

[Helios 1984]

I use regular gas and I do not drink coffee. And stop bath is the cheapest photo chemical except for PhotoFlo.

Humm I'll have to work on these exaggeration liners.

 

[Agulliver]

I won't get into the politics or legality.....but if you are in London and want photo supplies cheaply....and if you have banknotes in your wallet....Process Supplies will gladly help you...

 

[David Lyga]

Again, diluting Dektol up to 1 + 24 is within the safe realm of capacity, by a considerable factor. Do not dilute more, though, because you just might run into trouble.

Also, don't consider D-76's maximum dilution to be what Kodak says! Seriously, D-76 can be diluted about half as much as Dektol can be diluted (it has about half the developer components). However, to get D-76 to be as vigorous as is Dektol you must add some sodium carbonate. How much? Try adding about 30 mL (not grams) of sodium carbonate, mono (essentially store-bought washing soda) to a liter of D-76 stock. Experiment: you might want to add even a bit more. Then dilute D-76 1 + 11 to make a 12X dilution and your times should be similar as with the diluted Dektol. Of course this also applies to Ilford's ID-11 as it is, essentially, D-76 by another name.

Another ongoing frugal tip: don't waste whole rolls doing your tests. Do clip tests using one or two frames. Use your head when saving money. Don't be an idiot. - David Lyga

 

[GRHazelton]

tax is a form of legalized theft.

I rather prefer the adage that "Taxes are the price we pay for civilization."