Presoaking film and development time

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Vaughn

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Air bells are an issue in carbon printing that must be dealt with and watched for constantly...but I do not think there is any equivilent in silver gelatin negative processing. In silver gelatin printing, I suppose if one just tossed the paper into a tray of developer upside down with minimum aggitation, there could be issues with air trapped underneath.

But 'Banging the SS tanks on the counter top" meant we went thru a couple counter tops while I was there. Only one counter/sink for film developing and 125 students -- that's a lot of banging! I put out squares of rubber gasket material on the counter for the students to bang on, but some liked that satisfy BANG! every 30 seconds.
 
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logan2z

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Air bells are an issue in carbon printing that must be dealt with and watched for constantly...but I do not think there is any equivilent in silver gelatin negative processing.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but are you saying that air bubbles temporarily adhering to the surface of silver gelatin film during development and inhibiting development at the point of contact with the film is not possible? Or are you simply saying that the issue that does arise during film development is not the same as the issue that arises during carbon printing?
 

George Collier

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Related question - if I do not currently use a presoak, but start presoaking (HC110 and Pyrocat MC), can I use the same presoak water for a stop bath?
Fixer is TF5 and since in hot weather, it would be one more temperature controlled bath I wouldn't have to prepare? I have never noticed any discoloration in the expelled developer when dumping.
 

Vaughn

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Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but are you saying that air bubbles temporarily adhering to the surface of silver gelatin film during development and inhibiting development at the point of contact with the film is not possible? Or are you simply saying that the issue that does arise during film development is not the same as the issue that arises during carbon printing?

The second...in carbon printing one is putting two sheets of material together in water and letting them stick together -- trapping any air bells between them that might have been on one of the two surfaces. This results in a bump in the print -- a physical problem rather than chemical.

Air bells on film just slow down whatever chemical reaction would normally be taking place...until they are dislodged.
 
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logan2z

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The second...in carbon printing one is putting two sheets of material together in water and letting them stick together -- trapping any air bells between them that might have been on one of the two surfaces. This results in a bump in the print -- a physical problem rather than chemical.

Air bells on film just slow down whatever chemical reaction would normally be taking place...until they are dislodged.

Got it, thanks for clarifying.
 

pentaxuser

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Has anyone here experienced an air bell problem that would not go away? None of our 125 students per quarter for the decades I was associated with the photo program at the university ever did.

Well it appears that one member has to the extent that he is switching to stainless steel reels. This is a related but I accept separate problem and in fact separate thread from the nub of this thread which relates to the effect of pre-soaking on development time.

If pre-soaking does provide a cure for airbells then maybe for anyone else experiencing this problem to an insurmountable degree it's the fallback answer we need to give but something in my head tells me that other things are going on which creates the problem that even the sufferer does not realise and your comment Vaughn would seem to confirm this as that is a lot of successes at 125 students per quarter for decades

pentaxuser
 

Vaughn

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No chronic problems, anyway. The students used SS tanks (two 35mm or one 120 roll) and reels, with no pre-soak if I remember right. Probably to keep things as simple as possible in the film developing room. And I stressed that agitation should move developer through all of the coil of film in the tank, so don't go easy on it. I use the 'tossing the tank over the shoulder' method -- those double 120 reel tanks build up the arms!

The students did not pre-soak developing 4x5 in SS racks and tanks, which was the standard method we taught...lift up the four racks an inch and dropped them back into the tank to dislodge any possible airbells.

My main issue back in my silver printing days were the airbells that would occasionally show up in Agfa Portriga Rapid as perfect round white dots, not very often, I assume an airbell in the emulsion during coating at the factory.
 

Scott J.

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I'd like to hear a scientist's take on "displacing the water"..... i can't make sense of that.

[Warning: Pedantic Post]

I work in reservoir engineering with a specialty in modeling fluid flow through porous media (primarily water and water-based solutions through geologic reservoirs). That's not a perfect analog to the film world, but probably close enough to take a shot at this question, which I've given some thought to in the past.

To my thinking, there are at least two mass-transport-related processes going on here that dictate how quickly the developer starts to react with the latent image in the emulsion. The first is the ability of the developer solution to penetrate through the outer layers coating the emulsion (e.g., the protective topcoat, the film base, etc.). The second is the ability of the developer solution to diffuse into and throughout the emulsion.

Most people make the quite reasonable assumption that since the pre-soak water and developer solution are perfectly miscible (i.e., both based on water), doing a pre-soak should make the development happen faster -- almost as if the pre-soak water were helping to "escort" the developer into the film faster. I think that assumption might be applicably true to process #1 above, depending on the composition of the various outer layers (I don't know for sure, but it seems at least plausible). This phenomenon, if real, might be comparable to the positive correlation we always see between phase saturation and relative permeability in porous media.

The movement of the developer into the emulsion (process #2 above), however, is a bit more complicated. Similar to what was described above for the outer layers, doing a pre-soak might speed up the process of distributing some of the developing agent throughout the emulsion layer (again, I can't say for sure), but there's a catch: The pre-soak water in the emulsion is also diluting the incoming developer solution. And that's really the problem here -- dilution. It's not so much that the developer solution is having a hard time "pushing" the pre-soak water out of the way -- after all, what we're describing is a purely passive transport process in which both fluids exhibit perfect miscibility. Instead, what's going on is that the two fluids are mixing for a period of time until the fluid in the emulsion is more or less compositionally identical to the fluid in the rest of the tank. That process is entirely based on diffusion, which in general is quite slow, especially through semi-permeable membranes. Pretty much the only things you can do to speed up the process are: 1) agitate frequently at the beginning of development (thereby maintaining the steepest possible diffusion gradient at the fluid-film interface); and 2) develop at a higher temperature (since the rate of diffusion is moderately positively correlated with temperature).

So, we have two competing effects: a) the possibility that wet/swollen layers might slightly speed up development by aiding in the movement of water molecules through the various layers; and b) the absolute certainty that the in-situ pre-soak water in the emulsion will slow down development by temporarily diluting the incoming developer. Based on my lab experience testing diffusion-limited processes, my instinct is that the second process is likely more significant than the first. So, there probably is something to the idea that a pre-soak should be compensated for by slightly extending the development time. The only way to know for sure would be to run a test with a densitometer. I might give this a go to satisfy my own curiosity.
 
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logan2z

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[Warning: Pedantic Post]

I work in reservoir engineering with a specialty in modeling fluid flow through porous media (primarily water and water-based solutions through geologic reservoirs). That's not a perfect analog to the film world, but probably close enough to take a shot at this question, which I've given some thought to in the past.

To my thinking, there are at least two mass-transport-related processes going on here that dictate how quickly the developer starts to react with the latent image in the emulsion. The first is the ability of the developer solution to penetrate through the outer layers coating the emulsion (e.g., the protective topcoat, the film base, etc.). The second is the ability of the developer solution to diffuse into and throughout the emulsion.

Most people make the quite reasonable assumption that since the pre-soak water and developer solution are perfectly miscible (i.e., both based on water), doing a pre-soak should make the development happen faster -- almost as if the pre-soak water were helping to "escort" the developer into the film faster. I think that assumption might be applicably true to process #1 above, depending on the composition of the various outer layers (I don't know for sure, but it seems at least plausible). This phenomenon, if real, might be comparable to the positive correlation we always see between phase saturation and relative permeability in porous media.

The movement of the developer into the emulsion (process #2 above), however, is a bit more complicated. Similar to what was described above for the outer layers, doing a pre-soak might speed up the process of distributing some of the developing agent throughout the emulsion layer (again, I can't say for sure), but there's a catch: The pre-soak water in the emulsion is also diluting the incoming developer solution. And that's really the problem here -- dilution. It's not so much that the developer solution is having a hard time "pushing" the pre-soak water out of the way -- after all, what we're describing is a purely passive transport process in which both fluids exhibit perfect miscibility. Instead, what's going on is that the two fluids are mixing for a period of time until the fluid in the emulsion is more or less compositionally identical to the fluid in the rest of the tank. That process is entirely based on diffusion, which in general is quite slow, especially through semi-permeable membranes. Pretty much the only things you can do to speed up the process are: 1) agitate frequently at the beginning of development (thereby maintaining the steepest possible diffusion gradient at the fluid-film interface); and 2) develop at a higher temperature (since the rate of diffusion is moderately positively correlated with temperature).

So, we have two competing effects: a) the possibility that wet/swollen layers might slightly speed up development by aiding in the movement of water molecules through the various layers; and b) the absolute certainty that the in-situ pre-soak water in the emulsion will slow down development by temporarily diluting the incoming developer. Based on my lab experience testing diffusion-limited processes, my instinct is that the second process is likely more significant than the first. So, there probably is something to the idea that a pre-soak should be compensated for by slightly extending the development time. The only way to know for sure would be to run a test with a densitometer. I might give this a go to satisfy my own curiosity.

Very interesting, thanks for the post. I'd love to see the results of your test once you've run it.
 
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...So, we have two competing effects: a) the possibility that wet/swollen layers might slightly speed up development by aiding in the movement of water molecules through the various layers; and b) the absolute certainty that the in-situ pre-soak water in the emulsion will slow down development by temporarily diluting the incoming developer...

That's why:

...presoaking/prerinsing/prewashing (take your pick of terminology) in rotary black and white processing neither has any deleterious effect on development nor can be said to definitively result in an increase or decrease in required development time. That varies with each individual film/developer combination; some need more, some less. Only testing of one's own materials will provide a useful answer.
 

Sirius Glass

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[Warning: Pedantic Post]

I work in reservoir engineering with a specialty in modeling fluid flow through porous media (primarily water and water-based solutions through geologic reservoirs). That's not a perfect analog to the film world, but probably close enough to take a shot at this question, which I've given some thought to in the past.

To my thinking, there are at least two mass-transport-related processes going on here that dictate how quickly the developer starts to react with the latent image in the emulsion. The first is the ability of the developer solution to penetrate through the outer layers coating the emulsion (e.g., the protective topcoat, the film base, etc.). The second is the ability of the developer solution to diffuse into and throughout the emulsion.

Most people make the quite reasonable assumption that since the pre-soak water and developer solution are perfectly miscible (i.e., both based on water), doing a pre-soak should make the development happen faster -- almost as if the pre-soak water were helping to "escort" the developer into the film faster. I think that assumption might be applicably true to process #1 above, depending on the composition of the various outer layers (I don't know for sure, but it seems at least plausible). This phenomenon, if real, might be comparable to the positive correlation we always see between phase saturation and relative permeability in porous media.

The movement of the developer into the emulsion (process #2 above), however, is a bit more complicated. Similar to what was described above for the outer layers, doing a pre-soak might speed up the process of distributing some of the developing agent throughout the emulsion layer (again, I can't say for sure), but there's a catch: The pre-soak water in the emulsion is also diluting the incoming developer solution. And that's really the problem here -- dilution. It's not so much that the developer solution is having a hard time "pushing" the pre-soak water out of the way -- after all, what we're describing is a purely passive transport process in which both fluids exhibit perfect miscibility. Instead, what's going on is that the two fluids are mixing for a period of time until the fluid in the emulsion is more or less compositionally identical to the fluid in the rest of the tank. That process is entirely based on diffusion, which in general is quite slow, especially through semi-permeable membranes. Pretty much the only things you can do to speed up the process are: 1) agitate frequently at the beginning of development (thereby maintaining the steepest possible diffusion gradient at the fluid-film interface); and 2) develop at a higher temperature (since the rate of diffusion is moderately positively correlated with temperature).

So, we have two competing effects: a) the possibility that wet/swollen layers might slightly speed up development by aiding in the movement of water molecules through the various layers; and b) the absolute certainty that the in-situ pre-soak water in the emulsion will slow down development by temporarily diluting the incoming developer. Based on my lab experience testing diffusion-limited processes, my instinct is that the second process is likely more significant than the first. So, there probably is something to the idea that a pre-soak should be compensated for by slightly extending the development time. The only way to know for sure would be to run a test with a densitometer. I might give this a go to satisfy my own curiosity.

I thought that it would be about a draw, with the surface tension broken. I have never noticed a difference in development relative to density [visually not measured] but in areas of near uniform density and better smoothness of tones. In general a more consistent development.
 

grat

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Keeping in mind the thickness of the layers in question, I suspect that the amount of time required for the emulsion to become fully wet is only a few seconds-- so unless you're trying to develop in under 3 minutes, it's not going to have a noticeable effect either way.

Although I do have an instruction sheet for some glass plates that talks about D-167 as a developer-- Their suggested development time is 1.5 to 2.5 minutes at 18C / 65F.
 

Vaughn

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Considering one must constantly replace exhausted developer within the emulsion with fresh developer throughout development, starting off dry or wet seems to be a minor factor.
 

AgX

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-) in their E-6 manual Jobo explicitely advised NOT to use presoaking
Jobo USA explicetely advised NOT to use presoaking for ANY colour process

-) in their b&w manual they explicetely advised pre-soaking, but for more homogeneous development

Tetenal 1847 advise in their 2021 E-6 datasheet to pre-soak roll- and sheet-films at rotational development*, in contrast to Old-Tetenal.

*at same 1st developing time
 
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RalphLambrecht

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I recently started using rotary processing with a Jobo roller instead of inversion processing. When making the transition, I decreased development time by 15%. Now I'm thinking about presoaking my film prior to development. I've read that once the film is presoaked, it takes some time for the developer to displace the water in the emulsion.

For those of you who added a presoak step before development, did you increase development time in order to compensate for the time required for the developer to displace the water from the emulsion? If so, by how much?

Not sure how true this is, but I've read that Jobo started recommending presoaking in order to bring rotary development times back inline with the inversion development times recommended by film manufacturers. Given that, I'm wondering if I should just go back to the times I was using for inversion processing, but I'm curious to hear how much others have compensated for the presoak.

no presoak; no compensation here.
 

PhotoPham

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I personally Presoak with one water change out (total 5-10mins presoak time) using a Jobo, then develop without changing times and things always came out fine with no issues.

The only time I had issues was when I didn't presoak and used inversion methods and I always ran into something bad. Glad I switched to Jobo.
 

Scott J.

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As a follow-up to my previous post (#33, above), I ran some film tests over the last few days to evaluate what impact, if any, doing a water pre-soak has on development, and the results really surprised me. This is a pretty long post, so if you prefer not to read the whole thing, the primary takeaway is this: Doing a water pre-soak does inhibit development (i.e., reduces negative density), at least for the combination of film, developer, and process type that I tested (Tmax 100, Adox XT-3, rotary development). I was really surprised at just how significant the effect is. I describe the testing procedure and results in detail below.

To run the test, I exposed six 4x5 sheets of Tmax 100 with a 21-step Stouffer step wedge, developed them using different development routines, and measured their resulting densities with a densitometer. Plotting the results (zone versus visual density) allowed me to visualize how the density ranges compared among the different development routines.

For each exposure, the step wedge was placed on top of the film in a film holder. Following that, a photograph of a flat, uniform surface (e.g., a white wall) was made with the camera and lens under daylight to create a film negative of the step wedge. The step wedge allowed me to record a range of densities in half-stop increments on the film, ranging from what is essentially equivalent to a Zone 0 exposure all the way up to a Zone 10 exposure. I’ve included scans of one of the sheets in Figure 1 below. The non-inverted negative is on the left, while the inverted positive is on the right.

Figure-1.jpg

Figure 1: Tmax 100 film exposed through 4x5" Stouffer step wedge. Non-inverted negative on the left; inverted positive on the right. The dashed box indicates where the base plus fog density measurements are taken (a patch of black electrical tape on the step wedge). The Roman numerals correspond to equivalent zones.

I adjusted the brightness and contrast in the scanning software (Flexcolor 4.0.3) so that the tonal difference in each of the steps would be more clear in this composite image. This was done for purely illustrative purposes and had no effect on the test (the evaluative portion of the test was done with a densitometer and the actual negatives).

All six negatives looked similar to the one on the left-hand side of Figure 1 with only minor variations in density. I’ve labelled the steps in the inverted positive with the corresponding equivalent zone numbers as I find this a useful, if potentially inaccurate, way of thinking about tonality. (I’ll note here that I’m glossing over some of the technical details regarding how a step wedge is used that aren’t particularly important for the interpretation of these specific test results; I'm simply trying to record a series of uniform, repeatable densities on the various sheets of film so that I can make some measurements and comparisons with the densitometer.)

I used a Chamonix 45H-1 camera with a Nikkor-M 300mm f/9 lens, shooting at or near f/22 for all exposures. The metering was done with a Sekonic L-558 in spot mode using an ISO of 100, which is box speed for Tmax 100. The photographs were all made during mid-day under sunny conditions. On the first day, I exposed three sheets (Sheets 1-3) within approximately five minutes of each other under virtually identical lighting conditions (I re-metered before each exposure). On the second day, I exposed an additional three sheets (Sheets 4-6) under slightly brighter (+0.3 EV) ambient lighting compared to the previous day. The slightly brighter conditions on Day 2 were accounted for in the exposure settings for Sheets 4-6. Subsequently, all six sheets should have received essentially identical levels of exposure, say, within +/- one-sixth of a stop (i.e., the metering and exposure settings were all read to the nearest one-third stop, so the standard uncertainty in the measurements should be half that).

All sheets were developed in Adox XT-3 (chemically comparable to Kodak Xtol) using a dilution of 1+1 at 20 degrees C. For processing, I used a Jobo CPE-2 with lift, a 2520 tank, and a 2509n reel with the 4x5 retaining panels installed. The tempering bath of my CPE-2 is equipped with a small circulating pump to help with temperature equilibration and I monitor the temperature with an in-calibration digital lab thermometer. All chemical solutions were prepared using distilled water and ensured to be at the development temperature of 20 degrees C before starting development. Although I only developed one sheet at a time, I used Jobo’s recommended minimum volume of 270 mL for all solutions and processing runs.

For the standard development time, I referred to the most recent Tmax 100 data sheet (see page 4 here). For 4x5 rotary development in Xtol at a dilution of 1+1, Kodak recommends a time of 9:45 (mm:ss). In general, the processing regime went as follows:
  1. Pre-warm or pre-soak, 5:00 (dry or wet, depending on test type);
  2. Develop in XT-3 1+1, from 9:45 to 11:42 (depending on test type);
  3. Kodak Indicator Stop Bath, 0:45;
  4. Tap water rinse, 0:30 (to prevent acid carryover into fixer);
  5. Kodak Rapid Fixer, 4:00 (Part A only, no hardener used);
  6. Tap water rinse, 2 x 0:30;
  7. Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent, 2:00 (used to eliminate magenta stain);
  8. Tap water rinse, 2 x 0:30 (to rinse the pour-in channel in the Jobo lift);
  9. Running tap water wash, 5:00 (using a Jobo Cascade film washer);
  10. Kodak Photo-Flo 200, 0:45;
  11. Hang to dry, approx. 60:00.
(A quick note about Step 7 – Because I’m using Kodak Rapid Fixer, which is based on ammonium thiosulfate, Hypo Clearing Agent (HCA) isn’t really necessary for the purpose of removing residual fixer. It is quite useful, however, for removing the sensitizing dyes that are commonly present in tabular-grain films. I know from experience that these dyes can, if not removed, have a pretty significant effect on densitometer readings, so that’s why I’ve included an HCA step in the developing regime. This step could be eliminated but would need to be compensated for by using much longer wash times.)

Once a sheet of film was dry, I used an X-Rite 811 densitometer in Status M mode to measure the visual density of the various steps recorded on the sheet. I checked the calibration of the X-Rite with a calibration target before each set of measurements to ensure it was reading accurately. In total, 22 density measurements were made for each sheet of film – one measurement to determine the base plus fog (B+F) density, followed by an additional 21 measurements to cover each step in the wedge. The density measurements plotted in the charts below are all “net” density measurements, where net density equals the density measurement of each step minus the B+F density.

Sheet 1 is my control sheet and was developed for 9:45 with no pre-soak. To ensure temperature consistency, I used a five-minute, dry, pre-warm step with the tank rotating in the Jobo to develop Sheet 1. Sheet 2 was similarly developed for 9:45, but utilized a five-minute pre-soak in distilled water while rotating in the Jobo. All other development steps were kept the same. The density curves for Sheets 1 and 2 are plotted in Figure 2 below.

Figure-2.jpg

Figure 2: No pre-soak vs. pre-soak density.

The above result really surprised me. Although I expected some loss of density in the sheet developed with a pre-soak, I didn’t expect it to be this significant. These results do strongly suggest that, at least for this specific film-developer-processor combination, doing a water pre-soak does inhibit development to some degree.

My next step was to develop a third sheet of similarly exposed film using a five-minute pre-soak plus extended development time in an attempt to compensate for the loss in density seen in Figure 2. Sheet 3 was developed for 10:30, which is equivalent to an additional 7.7% of development time over the standard time of 9:45. The density measurements for Sheet 3 are plotted along with those from Sheets 1 and 2 in Figure 3 below.

Figure-3.jpg

Figure 3: Evaluating the effect of extended development time (+7.7%) following a water pre-soak.

As can be seen in Figure 3, 7.7% wasn’t enough additional development time to compensate for the loss of density due to the pre-soak. I had initially guessed that 5-10% additional development might be enough, so this result was another surprise to me. There’s also a curious observation to be made in the shape of the curve for Sheet 3. Specifically, there's a steeping of the density curve in the highlights near Zones 9 and 10. My instinct is that by extending the development time to compensate for the loss in density due to the pre-soak, we end up with over-development in the highlights. This seems consistent with what photographers generally assume will be the effect of increased development (i.e., greater impact on highlight density and a corresponding increase in overall contrast).

Because these were surprising results, I wondered whether my control sheet (Sheet 1) might not be a fluke (e.g., metering error, etc.). To investigate that possibility, I exposed three more sheets under similar conditions the following day. Sheet 4 was developed as per normal (9:45, no pre-soak) to provide a check on the accuracy of my original control sheet. The density measurements for Sheet 4 are plotted with Sheets 1-3 in Figure 4.

Figure-4.jpg

Figure 4: Repeatability test on the original control sheet. The density curve for the repeat control test (Sheet 4) closely matches that of the original control test (Sheet 1).

As can be seen above, there’s very little difference in the density curves of the two control sheets. What difference there is can likely be attributed to the +/- one-sixth of a stop uncertainty in the metering and exposure settings. On the whole, I feel Sheet 4 confirmed that my control densities measured in Sheet 1 were accurate and representative of the standard development. Consequently, I’ve chosen to continue using the Sheet 1 density curve for all subsequent comparisons.

Next, I made a second attempt at determining how much additional development is needed to compensate for the loss of density due to the pre-soak. Sheet 5 was developed for 11:42, which is equivalent to an additional 20% of development time over the standard time of 9:45. The density measurements for Sheet 5 are plotted with Sheets 1, 2, and 3 in Figure 5.

Figure-5.jpg

Figure 5: Evaluating the effect of extended development time (+20%) following a water pre-soak.

This result compared well with the densities in the original control sheet, particularly in Zones 3-8, which suggests that 20% of additional development time may be a good place to start with this film and developer combination. That said, Sheet 5 exhibits the same rapid increase in highlight density that was previously observed in Sheet 3. This is, again, consistent with the idea that extending the development time has a disproportionately large effect on highlight density. This might make extending the development time problematic -- i.e., you can counteract the effect of the pre-soak on the shadows and midtones by simply extending the development time, but doing so may come at the expense of blown out highlights. That said, it’s debatable to what degree we need to be concerned with density in Zones 9 and 10, since we’re usually trying to engineer an exposure in such a way as to avoid recording overly harsh light.

For my final test, I wondered if the duration of the pre-soak might be having an effect on the development. In developing Sheet 6, I reduced the pre-soak time from 5:00 to 1:00 and developed using the standard time of 9:45. The results are plotted with Sheets 1 and 2 in Figure 6.

Figure-6.jpg

Figure 6: Testing the effect of pre-soak duration on density. The shorter pre-soak (Sheet 6) exhibits less inhibition of development compared to the sheet pre-soaked for 5:00 (Sheet 2).

This was another interesting result. It appears that the duration of the pre-soak does correlate with the degree to which the development is inhibited. Going off my previous hypothesis about how pre-soak water in the emulsion dilutes the incoming developer, it makes sense that a longer pre-soak would result in more water uptake in the emulsion and, hence, greater dilution of the incoming developer. I suspect there are lower and upper bounds to this effect, meaning: The inhibition phenomenon probably begins building at the very moment the pre-soak is initiated, and then reaches a maximum level after a few minutes. Presumably, this would be slightly different for every film type, developer, dilution, and agitation scheme.

To summarize:

  1. Doing a water pre-soak does appear to inhibit development.
  2. The duration of the water pre-soak is an important factor -- i.e., the longer the pre-soak, the great the inhibition to the development and the lower the density in the developed negatives (up to a certain point).
  3. The reduction in density arising as a consequence of the pre-soak can be compensated for in the shadows and midtones by extending the development time (e.g., by +20%), but doing say may simultaneously cause the upper highlights (Zones 9-10) to blow out compared to the highlights in the "standard" development that utilizes no pre-soak.
Some closing remarks... Your results may vary. I've tried to conduct these tests in as consistent and precise a manner as possible, but given different conditions and a different operator, who knows? Also, this isn't intended to be a true Zone System-style film speed and development time test; I'm simply trying to record some identical latent images on different sheets of film so we can see how the developed densities compare following different development routines. And most importantly, these tests aren't intended to suggest whether doing a pre-soak is "correct". Many people swear by it, many others don't. My intention here was merely to ask (and attempt to answer) a purely scientific question without regard to issues of aesthetics. Hopefully it was useful to you.
 
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AgX

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Thank you for your efforts!

We need more of this kind of experiments at Apug.
 

MattKing

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Thanks for sharing the results of your significant amount of work.
One other observation to consider:
1) the results may be at least partially related to the format/substrate. Sheet film and 120 roll film and 135 roll film emulsions need to be at least slightly different, due to issues such as different anti-halation requirements. Whether those differences impact how film absorbs and then retains a presoak, and whether that impact results in significantly different negative densities, is an issue that might be worthwhile to explore.
 

Vaughn

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Thanks, Scott...great work. What I have taken away so far is that it does not matter if one does or does not pre-soak -- what is important is consistency after finding to ones own 'best' film/EI/dev/time/temp/agitation scheme. Which is in turned determined by the print (or other final product).

And if you want (or don't want) a little boost to just your highlights, be aware that a pre-soak might do that.
I pre-soak, and actually want that little kick at the end of the curve in the negative for my printing processes. Did not know I was getting it -- but like the negatives!

And as Matt mentioned -- all bets are off on what my Kodak Pro Copy Film's curves would look like -- one 'strange' film...love it!
 

AgX

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The results may be at least partially related to the format/substrate. Sheet film and 120 roll film and 135 roll film emulsions need to be at least slightly different, due to issues such as different anti-halation requirements. Whether those differences impact how film absorbs and then retains a presoak, and whether that impact results in significantly different negative densities, is an issue that might be worthwhile to explore.

Such format differnces only could affect presoaking, if there was a difference in layers between the halide layer(s) and the base.
 
  • Cubao
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john_s

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In 40 years of developing the film, I have never pre-soaked it.

Up until a few years ago, I would have said exactly that too. What changed? I started using medium format, and despite not having uneven development for decades I was getting some circular marks of slightly lower density in the sky, leading to darker spots on prints. I did try the usual recommendations. Eventually a prewash solved it.
 

cliveh

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Never pre-soaked and never will. A complete waste of time.
 
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