Air bells are an issue in carbon printing that must be dealt with and watched for constantly...but I do not think there is any equivilent in silver gelatin negative processing.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but are you saying that air bubbles temporarily adhering to the surface of silver gelatin film during development and inhibiting development at the point of contact with the film is not possible? Or are you simply saying that the issue that does arise during film development is not the same as the issue that arises during carbon printing?
The second...in carbon printing one is putting two sheets of material together in water and letting them stick together -- trapping any air bells between them that might have been on one of the two surfaces. This results in a bump in the print -- a physical problem rather than chemical.
Air bells on film just slow down whatever chemical reaction would normally be taking place...until they are dislodged.
Has anyone here experienced an air bell problem that would not go away? None of our 125 students per quarter for the decades I was associated with the photo program at the university ever did.
I'd like to hear a scientist's take on "displacing the water"..... i can't make sense of that.
[Warning: Pedantic Post]
I work in reservoir engineering with a specialty in modeling fluid flow through porous media (primarily water and water-based solutions through geologic reservoirs). That's not a perfect analog to the film world, but probably close enough to take a shot at this question, which I've given some thought to in the past.
To my thinking, there are at least two mass-transport-related processes going on here that dictate how quickly the developer starts to react with the latent image in the emulsion. The first is the ability of the developer solution to penetrate through the outer layers coating the emulsion (e.g., the protective topcoat, the film base, etc.). The second is the ability of the developer solution to diffuse into and throughout the emulsion.
Most people make the quite reasonable assumption that since the pre-soak water and developer solution are perfectly miscible (i.e., both based on water), doing a pre-soak should make the development happen faster -- almost as if the pre-soak water were helping to "escort" the developer into the film faster. I think that assumption might be applicably true to process #1 above, depending on the composition of the various outer layers (I don't know for sure, but it seems at least plausible). This phenomenon, if real, might be comparable to the positive correlation we always see between phase saturation and relative permeability in porous media.
The movement of the developer into the emulsion (process #2 above), however, is a bit more complicated. Similar to what was described above for the outer layers, doing a pre-soak might speed up the process of distributing some of the developing agent throughout the emulsion layer (again, I can't say for sure), but there's a catch: The pre-soak water in the emulsion is also diluting the incoming developer solution. And that's really the problem here -- dilution. It's not so much that the developer solution is having a hard time "pushing" the pre-soak water out of the way -- after all, what we're describing is a purely passive transport process in which both fluids exhibit perfect miscibility. Instead, what's going on is that the two fluids are mixing for a period of time until the fluid in the emulsion is more or less compositionally identical to the fluid in the rest of the tank. That process is entirely based on diffusion, which in general is quite slow, especially through semi-permeable membranes. Pretty much the only things you can do to speed up the process are: 1) agitate frequently at the beginning of development (thereby maintaining the steepest possible diffusion gradient at the fluid-film interface); and 2) develop at a higher temperature (since the rate of diffusion is moderately positively correlated with temperature).
So, we have two competing effects: a) the possibility that wet/swollen layers might slightly speed up development by aiding in the movement of water molecules through the various layers; and b) the absolute certainty that the in-situ pre-soak water in the emulsion will slow down development by temporarily diluting the incoming developer. Based on my lab experience testing diffusion-limited processes, my instinct is that the second process is likely more significant than the first. So, there probably is something to the idea that a pre-soak should be compensated for by slightly extending the development time. The only way to know for sure would be to run a test with a densitometer. I might give this a go to satisfy my own curiosity.
...So, we have two competing effects: a) the possibility that wet/swollen layers might slightly speed up development by aiding in the movement of water molecules through the various layers; and b) the absolute certainty that the in-situ pre-soak water in the emulsion will slow down development by temporarily diluting the incoming developer...
...presoaking/prerinsing/prewashing (take your pick of terminology) in rotary black and white processing neither has any deleterious effect on development nor can be said to definitively result in an increase or decrease in required development time. That varies with each individual film/developer combination; some need more, some less. Only testing of one's own materials will provide a useful answer.
[Warning: Pedantic Post]
I work in reservoir engineering with a specialty in modeling fluid flow through porous media (primarily water and water-based solutions through geologic reservoirs). That's not a perfect analog to the film world, but probably close enough to take a shot at this question, which I've given some thought to in the past.
To my thinking, there are at least two mass-transport-related processes going on here that dictate how quickly the developer starts to react with the latent image in the emulsion. The first is the ability of the developer solution to penetrate through the outer layers coating the emulsion (e.g., the protective topcoat, the film base, etc.). The second is the ability of the developer solution to diffuse into and throughout the emulsion.
Most people make the quite reasonable assumption that since the pre-soak water and developer solution are perfectly miscible (i.e., both based on water), doing a pre-soak should make the development happen faster -- almost as if the pre-soak water were helping to "escort" the developer into the film faster. I think that assumption might be applicably true to process #1 above, depending on the composition of the various outer layers (I don't know for sure, but it seems at least plausible). This phenomenon, if real, might be comparable to the positive correlation we always see between phase saturation and relative permeability in porous media.
The movement of the developer into the emulsion (process #2 above), however, is a bit more complicated. Similar to what was described above for the outer layers, doing a pre-soak might speed up the process of distributing some of the developing agent throughout the emulsion layer (again, I can't say for sure), but there's a catch: The pre-soak water in the emulsion is also diluting the incoming developer solution. And that's really the problem here -- dilution. It's not so much that the developer solution is having a hard time "pushing" the pre-soak water out of the way -- after all, what we're describing is a purely passive transport process in which both fluids exhibit perfect miscibility. Instead, what's going on is that the two fluids are mixing for a period of time until the fluid in the emulsion is more or less compositionally identical to the fluid in the rest of the tank. That process is entirely based on diffusion, which in general is quite slow, especially through semi-permeable membranes. Pretty much the only things you can do to speed up the process are: 1) agitate frequently at the beginning of development (thereby maintaining the steepest possible diffusion gradient at the fluid-film interface); and 2) develop at a higher temperature (since the rate of diffusion is moderately positively correlated with temperature).
So, we have two competing effects: a) the possibility that wet/swollen layers might slightly speed up development by aiding in the movement of water molecules through the various layers; and b) the absolute certainty that the in-situ pre-soak water in the emulsion will slow down development by temporarily diluting the incoming developer. Based on my lab experience testing diffusion-limited processes, my instinct is that the second process is likely more significant than the first. So, there probably is something to the idea that a pre-soak should be compensated for by slightly extending the development time. The only way to know for sure would be to run a test with a densitometer. I might give this a go to satisfy my own curiosity.
-) in their E-6 manual Jobo explicitely advised NOT to use presoaking
Jobo USA explicetely advised NOT to use presoaking for ANY colour process
-) in their b&w manual they explicetely advised pre-soaking, but for more homogeneous development
I recently started using rotary processing with a Jobo roller instead of inversion processing. When making the transition, I decreased development time by 15%. Now I'm thinking about presoaking my film prior to development. I've read that once the film is presoaked, it takes some time for the developer to displace the water in the emulsion.
For those of you who added a presoak step before development, did you increase development time in order to compensate for the time required for the developer to displace the water from the emulsion? If so, by how much?
Not sure how true this is, but I've read that Jobo started recommending presoaking in order to bring rotary development times back inline with the inversion development times recommended by film manufacturers. Given that, I'm wondering if I should just go back to the times I was using for inversion processing, but I'm curious to hear how much others have compensated for the presoak.
The results may be at least partially related to the format/substrate. Sheet film and 120 roll film and 135 roll film emulsions need to be at least slightly different, due to issues such as different anti-halation requirements. Whether those differences impact how film absorbs and then retains a presoak, and whether that impact results in significantly different negative densities, is an issue that might be worthwhile to explore.
In 40 years of developing the film, I have never pre-soaked it.
In 40 years of developing the film, I have never pre-soaked it.
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