I wouldn't have thought that was the right reading because of the amount of snow and sky in the shot.
stability of 'sunny 16'
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I wouldn't have thought that was the right reading because of the amount of snow and sky in the shot.
I was a bit unclear. The readings measured was incident reading, the screenshot+range is for informational purposes.
Ah no my apologies. I misread your original post.
OP
OP
I'm a firm believer in sunny 16'; also tried and verified it in Florida, Detroit, Orlando, Cologne and Melbourne!
I’m afraid I just can’t share your faith. It seems self-evident that the intensity of sunlight - even in a cloudless sky - will vary with latitude, season and time of day. Also that the correct exposure for a given light level will depend on the type of subject (distant landscape, group portrait, individual portrait, closeup). Indeed, those are the factors that the more complex exposure calculators included. Sunny-16 is at best a starting point.
Yes... this is from a 19th century photography book. I have used and validated it when printing cyanotype under the sun. It does not address cloud cover, atmospheric contamination, or changes in the earth's rotation/tilt or spin axis/orbit though.
Like Sunny 16, the chart will get you in the ballpark. If ballpark exposures are good enough for you or your application, you can dispense with a meter. Some photographers prefer more precise exposures so they use a meter. Photography is a big tent.
I have asked a couple of times why Sunny 16 didn't change when ASA removed the safety factor in 1960 and ASA film speeds doubled even though the film didn't change. After all, ASA speed is in the denominator in the formula for determining shutter speed under Sunny 16.
I think I remember reading that back in the late 1800s, film speed was determined by how bright it was in Washington, D.C. on the first day of spring. Whoever was running the show prepared a little chart that everyone used for that year. That lead to the Sunny 16 rule so you wouldn't have to carry around a little chart, which in turn led to meters because photographers missed carrying something around, which in turn led to meters in cameras because photographers decided that carrying around meters wasn't all that it was cracked up to be after all. Then film manufacturers invented wide latitude film so no matter what exposure system you used, if you used one at all, you would get good photos. More or less. Kind of. Acceptable for 3 1/2 x 5s in a family album.
I like telling this story about this guy who was making a presentation at a camera club meeting I attended a while back. Naturally he told us all about what cameras and lenses he used as if that made the slightest bit of difference. Then he told us all about his background, where he was born, the first time his used his mother's Brownie, and all the rest, and his culminating remark was that since he had a BFA in photography he didn't need to use a meter. Then we had to look at his photos. I guess it goes without saying I thought he would have benefited from using a meter.
Having said all that, tell me again about Earth's elliptical orbit and its effect on exposure. I can tell you in advance though, there is no way I am going to remember the different distances from the Sun to the Earth for every day of the year, and I am not all that interested in carrying around a chart with that information either.
I have asked a couple of times why Sunny 16 didn't change when ASA removed the safety factor in 1960 and ASA film speeds doubled even though the film didn't change. After all, ASA speed is in the denominator in the formula for determining shutter speed under Sunny 16.
I think I remember reading that back in the late 1800s, film speed was determined by how bright it was in Washington, D.C. on the first day of spring. Whoever was running the show prepared a little chart that everyone used for that year. That lead to the Sunny 16 rule so you wouldn't have to carry around a little chart, which in turn led to meters because photographers missed carrying something around, which in turn led to meters in cameras because photographers decided that carrying around meters wasn't all that it was cracked up to be after all. Then film manufacturers invented wide latitude film so no matter what exposure system you used, if you used one at all, you would get good photos. More or less. Kind of. Acceptable for 3 1/2 x 5s in a family album.
I like telling this story about this guy who was making a presentation at a camera club meeting I attended a while back. Naturally he told us all about what cameras and lenses he used as if that made the slightest bit of difference. Then he told us all about his background, where he was born, the first time his used his mother's Brownie, and all the rest, and his culminating remark was that since he had a BFA in photography he didn't need to use a meter. Then we had to look at his photos. I guess it goes without saying I thought he would have benefited from using a meter.
Having said all that, tell me again about Earth's elliptical orbit and its effect on exposure. I can tell you in advance though, there is no way I am going to remember the different distances from the Sun to the Earth for every day of the year, and I am not all that interested in carrying around a chart with that information either.
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From ANSI PH2.7-1986 Photographic Exposure Guide
Two extremes.
Sunny 16:
3156 cd/m2 in the exposure example is close to the 3196 from the reflected exposure meter number. The difference comes primarily from rounding.
Exposure at Hg for a 125 speed film should be 8 / 125 = 0.064 mcs.
Two extremes.
Sunny 16:
3156 cd/m2 in the exposure example is close to the 3196 from the reflected exposure meter number. The difference comes primarily from rounding.
Exposure at Hg for a 125 speed film should be 8 / 125 = 0.064 mcs.
I'm at 51° N latitude and I live in the second sunniest city in Canada, averaging 333 days of sun per year.
With slide film, a correct average full sun exposure would be 1/125 F11 for a 100 speed film. If I gave it 1/125 F16 it would be a stop underexposed, and that's easy to discern on slide film. So I have always called the rule "sunny 11".
With slide film, a correct average full sun exposure would be 1/125 F11 for a 100 speed film. If I gave it 1/125 F16 it would be a stop underexposed, and that's easy to discern on slide film. So I have always called the rule "sunny 11".
I live precisely on 56° North (Sweden) and it is certainly Sunny 11 for me as well during the summer months. Other parts of the year, the sun is so low in the sky that "Sunny anything" becomes less useful. Incident metering is my friend.
The most comprehensive exposure estimator I have seen is that in the Ilford Manual of Photography (mine is the 1966 revision). I will try to attach it here. If you follow it through, you’ll find that Sunny 16 applies only to landscapes in summer sun at latitude 45-55N for about 3 hours either side of mid-day. The extreme conditions (eg latitude 65-75N in December) demonstrate in a trivial way the non-universality of Sunny 16. But even on an everyday level, it’s clear that several f-stops lie between Sunny 16 and an outdoor portrait in the early morning in Spring sunshine in northern USA.
F16 rule I always thought was based between 10:00 a.m. and 2:00 p.m.. I recall the old Kodak film maybe even the new ones has the instruction sheet in it that shows what exposure settings you should use based on light. Sunny, cloudy bright, shade, etc. And even it had 10am to 2pm. So if you shooting outside those times you going to have less light.
If you shoot during magic hour the F/16 rule is pretty much useless.
If you shoot during magic hour the F/16 rule is pretty much useless.
Absolutely right. It's a rule of thumb, not an absolute rule.
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One of the interesting bits of information in the Ilford book is that you have to remember to take into account Daylight Savings Time when using Sunny 16. Those phone apps are looking better and better.
I found a picture of the instruction sheet from Kodacolor X, ASA 64. I have no idea how old this must be, but quite a lot. Notice its seem the normal bright sunny is based at f/11 (EV14) at 1/125 which is f/16 at 1/60, the f/16 rule for ASA 64. But notice that the sheet also says this rule applies two hours after sunrise to two hours before sunset.
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OP
OP
just as good as a starting point as a $300 incident light meter. just take a few readings yourself. There is an amazing consistency.
LOL... one doesn't even need to spend that much money to get a consistently reliable meter.
In the UK and northern Europe it may be more like Sunny 11.
I bought a beautiful nearly current model Sekonic incident/reflection meter at a second hand store for 8 bucks. I've used Minolta meters for decades. Incident meters are awesome.
MattKing
Moderator
Kodacolor-X was manufactured between 1963 and 1974. That overlaps with my pre-teen and much of my teenage years, so the sun must have been brighter then!
The small print on the right side says 1963
Kodacolor-X was manufactured between 1963 and 1974. That overlaps with my pre-teen and much of my teenage years, so the sun must have been brighter then!
But, to excerpt Alan's reply,
"I found a picture of the instruction sheet from Kodacolor X, ASA 64...the normal bright sunny is based at f/11 (EV14) at 1/125 which is f/16 at 1/60, the f/16 rule for ASA 64."
1/ISO f/16 (Sunny 16 rule) is virtually same as 'ASA 64 at 1/60 f/16', so I do not understand where the 'sun brighter then' comment comes from.
Within the past year I did a series of incident reading on various 'sunny' days at about Latitude 38, and validated that depending upon the day 'Sunny 16 was pretty 'rule of thumb'; IIRC, the range measured about f/11 + 0.5EV to f/15 + 0.5EV
Being a resident of USA, I find it surprising that Sunny 16 only applies at Latitudes NORTH of Portland OR
which excludes most of the US landmass.
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Kodacolor-X was manufactured between 1963 and 1974. That overlaps with my pre-teen and much of my teenage years, so the sun must have been brighter then!
When volcano Mount Pinatubo blew, sunsets changed for about 2-3 years according to Galen Rowell of Outdoor Photographer Mag.
But, to excerpt Alan's reply,
"I found a picture of the instruction sheet from Kodacolor X, ASA 64...the normal bright sunny is based at f/11 (EV14) at 1/125 which is f/16 at 1/60, the f/16 rule for ASA 64."
1/ISO f/16 (Sunny 16 rule) is virtually same as 'ASA 64 at 1/60 f/16', so I do not understand where the 'sun brighter then' comment comes from.
Within the past year I did a series of incident reading on various 'sunny' days at about Latitude 38, and validated that depending upon the day 'Sunny 16 was pretty 'rule of thumb'; IIRC, the range measured about f/11 + 0.5EV to f/15 + 0.5EV
Being a resident of USA, I find it surprising that Sunny 16 only applies at Latitudes NORTH of Portland OR
I'm more amazed that it excludes Australia, NZ and the entire Southern hemisphere. Dont they get sun down under?
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