stability of 'sunny 16'

[Sirius Glass]

We were brighter then, too.

Words were dirty and the air was clean.

 

[Cholentpot]

Words were dirty and the air was clean.

The air was not cleaner back in the 50's. No waaaaaay. My home was still burning coal in the winter. London still had smog. We're miles ahead in air quality at least in the West.

 

[MattKing]

Learn something new every day.

So my experience of thinking that Sunny 11 served me better has somewhat of a history? I like how my negatives look at Sunny 11 over '16.

Not necessarily.
There are a number of reasons why you might prefer Sunny 11. They might relate to a preference for denser negatives. They may also relate to the lighting conditions you photograph under.
A lot of us have experience with slide film and Sunny 16. Over-exposed slide film is usually something to avoid.
It probably is relevant to remember that 1961 was also the year that the old version of Kodachrome with an old ASA speed of 10 was replaced by the new Kodachrome II, with the revolutionary new ASA speed of 25!

 

[Sirius Glass]

The air was not cleaner back in the 50's. No waaaaaay. My home was still burning coal in the winter. London still had smog. We're miles ahead in air quality at least in the West.

It was a joke.

 

[markjwyatt]

Learn something new every day.

So my experience of thinking that Sunny 11 served me better has somewhat of a history? I like how my negatives look at Sunny 11 over '16.

Again, a lot of people find their meters a still yield Sunny-11, so in a sense they are still calibrated to the 1959 density...

 

[Cholentpot]

It was a joke.

I can never tell these days.

Not necessarily.
There are a number of reasons why you might prefer Sunny 11. They might relate to a preference for denser negatives. They may also relate to the lighting conditions you photograph under.
A lot of us have experience with slide film and Sunny 16. Over-exposed slide film is usually something to avoid.
It probably is relevant to remember that 1961 was also the year that the old version of Kodachrome with an old ASA speed of 10 was replaced by the new Kodachrome II, with the revolutionary new ASA speed of 25!

I don't live in the brightest of places for most of the year. I shoot more of an Sunny 8 the majority of the time.

Again, a lot of people find their meters a still yield Sunny-11, so in a sense they are still calibrated to the 1959 density...

All my pre 1959 era meters are dead. Guess my eyes are calibrated to pre '59 although that was a few decades before I rolled around.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Not necessarily.
There are a number of reasons why you might prefer Sunny 11. They might relate to a preference for denser negatives. They may also relate to the lighting conditions you photograph under.
A lot of us have experience with slide film and Sunny 16. Over-exposed slide film is usually something to avoid.
It probably is relevant to remember that 1961 was also the year that the old version of Kodachrome with an old ASA speed of 10 was replaced by the new Kodachrome II, with the revolutionary new ASA speed of 25!

I remember K-II. When did they come out with K-64? I think I switched over to Ektachrome when they came out with 100 and 200 ASAs.

 

[grain elevator]

Again, a lot of people find their meters a still yield Sunny-11, so in a sense they are still calibrated to the 1959 density...

Meters were unaffected by the change in film ISO ratings. You'd set your meter to a different ISO after the change (if you followed the reasoning of the industry).
I too prefer sunny 11 unless I want empty shadows (~50°N).

 

[MattKing]

When did they come out with K-64?

When I was in grade 12
1974.

 

[Sirius Glass]

When I was in grade 12
1974.

So we are close to the same age.

 

[snusmumriken]

So we are close to the same age.

Isn’t it a feature of this forum that most of us are close to the same age?

 

[RalphLambrecht]

I assume you need a clear, sunny day with the sun unobstructed by clouds. But does time of day have an impact?

 

[RalphLambrecht]

of course time of day will make a difference,but in my experience,surprisingly little. Aslong as he sun is about 15 degrees above the horizon 'sunny 16' works!

 

[Arthurwg]

While the sun MAY be a stable light source, that doesn't mean the light in Portland is the same as the light in New Mexico. Every place has it's own native light (the sea shore is notoriously soft and diffused, while the desert is notoriously hard and glarey). You have to make your own adjustments w/ or w/o a meter to taylor your exposures to your locale. Consider the American Southwest sunny 22.

Here in New Mexico today the light is blazing, even with clouds in the sky. I can agree with Sunny 22.

 

[Arthurwg]

I have found these to be very accurate:

http://www.earlyphotography.co.uk/site/entry_E40-6.html


Steve.

And yes! These are plentiful on Ebay.

 

[Sirius Glass]

of course time of day will make a difference,but in my experience,surprisingly little. As long as the sun is about 15 degrees above the horizon 'sunny 16' works!

Photographing between 10:00 and 16:00 will minimize sky color variation.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

The time of day will have an impact, as will the weather and the meter. As we don't all have a sunny day at the same time in the month/season such an experiment is flawed.

'perfect' is the most destructive enemy of 'close enough'

 

[wiltw]

The sun does not even stay constant in ONE part of the world at one latitiude...I measured one day earlier this year f/16 +0.7EV, and I meansured just Friday and again Saturday at f/16 +0.2EV. These measurements taken about 40 miles south of Latitude 38 (Latitude 37.512) about 11 am to 2pm

I got same f/16 +0.7EV in July 2022, and posted that on Photrio. Both of these measurements were with the hemisphere pointed AT the sun.

But in June 29, 2021, I posted on Photrio...

"I just did another set of readings with Minolta Autometer Vf incident meter, on a bright sunny cloudless sky at 1:30pm at Latitude 38​

Readings varied by angle (of the hemisphere to the sun), with meter held perpendicular to the ground as if 'aimed at the camera lens'... f/8 +0.8EV to f/11 +0.7EV"​

​

f... that post after having posted in June 23, 2021

"1. Just now I metered with my handheld Minolta incident meter (ISO 250, 1/250 shutter), held perpendicular to the ground (as if aimed to the camera lens), and as I rotated the meter 360 degrees I detected readings between f/11 +0.1EV to f/11 +0.7EV at 1:30pm on a birght cloudless sky at 38 degrees latitude. So here right now, Sunny 16 would be underexposed by -0.3EV to -0.9EV! Color transparency would do fine, but color neg would be getting into the possibility of 'muddy color' in the shadows.​

2. One hour later, I metered with my handheld Minolta incident meter (ISO 250, 1/250 shutter), held perpendicular to the ground (as if aimed to the camera lens), and as I rotated the meter 360 degrees I detected readings between f/8 +0.6EV to f/11 +0.9EV at 2:30pm on a birght cloudless sky at 38 degrees latitude. Deviation from Sunny 16 got even greater, by -1.4EV at one side, but better at -0.1EV at the other extreme.​

...so in comparing #1 vs. #2, we see that even time of day change by 1 hour -- even close to mid day during the summer -- affects how well or how poorly Sunny 16 can be."​

​

and the angle of the hemisphere to the sun (based on the the angle of the subject to the camera lens) even with the hemisphere ppointed parallel to the ground will vary the optimal exposure.
IOW, f/16 is anything BUT 'stable'...it is a guiding rule of thumb that gets exposure in the ballpark when a meter is not available, that works quite well for color neg and not so well for color transparency when brighter than Sunny 16 by +2/3EV.

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

'perfect' is the most destructive enemy of 'close enough'

Another engineering adage is "Good enough is best."

 

[pentaxuser]

Isn’t it a feature of this forum that most of us are close to the same age?

Is that age or grave as in the place the box goes

pentaxuser

 

[snusmumriken]

Is that age or grave as in the place the box goes

pentaxuser

I don’t know, they always said I’d be late for my own funeral, and I want to stick to that plan.

 

[loccdor]

Another engineering adage is "Good enough is best."

And who can forget the timeless "Keep it simple, stupid."

 

[RalphLambrecht]

my dear friends on APUG,
I need your help for a world-wide experiment.the sun is known to be an extremely stable light source and has been for he last 4.5 billion yearswith promise to do the same for another 4.5 billion yearson a clear sunny day, it provides bout 82klux,measured on a perpendicular(normal)plane to the sun.this can be measured with an incident lightmetercapable of eadind in EVsat 100ISO,atich it should read EV 15.I have done this in Northern Europe and in North Amrikaand never had more than a 0.1 deviation from 15EV .Let's see how stable this is world-wide.Please take your incident meters,meters,step outside,point the dome directly into the sun and take an EV reading. Then please report it here with your location.I'll start:Florida, USA,yesterday3pmEV15.1;today11am14.9EV.
tanks for the effort

I checked again today and with nine(9 d)! different meters I get in Cologne,Germany at high noon exactly EV 15.0; remarkable.

 

[Craig]

I measured just now, in several ways. I used a Gossen Lunasix 3, with it's proper mercury battery, Minolta Autometer III, Nikon F4 and Nikon F6. I measured using the both incident (where possible) and reflective off a Kodak grey card (all). All meters set to ISO 100.

Measurements were taken with meters pointing at the sun ( incident), or pointed at the grey card (reflective), which itself was perpendicular to the sun. Clear sky, 3 hours before solar noon in Calgary, Alberta, latitude 51 deg N. The results:

Nikon F4: 250 F11 EV 15
Nikon F6: 250 F8 1/3 EV 14 1/3
Luna6: 250 F8 2/3 EV 14 2/3 (reflective and incident identical)
Minolta: 250 F16 EV 16 (incident)
250 F11 8/10 EV 15.8 (reflective)

So between the 4 meters, I have a range of almost 2 stops. I have achieved excellent results on slide film from the Nikon F6, so I tend to believe that, along with the Gossen. The Minolta seems to be an outlier, I have not used it enough to say anything about results using it's readings.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Since I had all my hand held light meters calibrated, my Hasselblad 45° PME calibrated, all my meters in and out of my cameras agree. It has been three years since I did that.