Tariffs and Film and Paper prices

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BrianShaw

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When I bought stuff from Japan, the duties were covered in the Paypal bill. Why couldn't the tariffs be covered just as the shipping, VAT, and other costs are? The seller just adds all the costs together, including the tariffs, and that becomes their selling price.

Maybe Kumar can educate us on how he intends to handle selling from China and Japan to America and elsewhere.

Aren’t import duty the responsibility of the importer, not the exporters? Aren’t the duty amounts computed by the customs authority of the importers country based on the customs declaration provided by the exporters?

How/why would a seller/exporter either be informed of the correct amount or remit it to the government entity that is not theirs? That had me baffled when a seller announced , relatively recently, a need for price hikes due to US tariff increases.

PayPal/ebay appears is working on behalf of the buyer/importer (you and me) and has both the exact duty knowledge from the customs clearance process and ability to remit those funds.
 
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Milpool

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Yes the B&H increases are more concerning to me than the tariffs themselves, given that the increases are greater than the rate of the tariff, and that they've also increased the price of Tri-X to match (both films previously sat at $8.99/135-36 and now both films are $9.99/135-36). To me this implies the use of tariffs as an excuse to increase profits. The optimist in me wants to believe that other retailers will find competitive advantage to more "honest," for lack of a better word, price adjustments.

Any global crisis is a potential opportunity to increase prices throughout the supply/manufacturing chain of virtually any product or service, regardless of impact, so that tends to happen.

The chip shortage wasn’t supposed to mean potato chips. :smile:
 

GregY

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Aren’t import duty the responsibility of the importer, not the exporters? Aren’t the duty amounts computed by the customs authority of the importers country based on the customs declaration provided by the exporters?

How/why would a seller/exporter either be informed of the correct amount or remit it to the government entity that is not theirs? That had me baffled when a seller announced , relatively recently, a need for price hikes due to US tariff increases.

PayPal/ebay appears is working on behalf of the buyer/importer (you and me) and has both the exact duty knowledge from the customs clearance process and ability to remit those funds.

Absolutely Brian.... for example not all transactions are done by Paypal (a U.S. based company).
How then are the tariffs going to find their way to the government of the importer....?
Alan, that's why ports & airports have customs offices....to collect the duties/tariffs due to the government of the importer.
 
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dhkirby

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You're assuming the worst of B&H, that they're dishonest, which isn't fair. I've always found them ethical in my dealings with them. In any case, competition determines the final price in the market place. A seller is kidding themselves that they'll fool the public over the long term. That doesn't work if others are not including tariffs to fake the selling prices.

I agree, and B&H has been my main supplier for years, so I bear no ill will there. Yet I can see no other reason for the sudden jumps.

I do not believe they will stick as such long-term in a competitive marketplace, for the same reasons you mention.
 
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Absolutely Brian.... for example not everything is done by Paypal.
How then are the tariffs going to find their way to the government of the importer....
Alan, that's why ports & airports have customs offices....to collect the duties/tariffs due to the government of the importer.

Aren’t import duty the responsibility of the importer, not the exporters? Aren’t the duty amounts computed by the customs authority of the importers country based on the customs declaration provided by the exporters?

How/why would a seller/exporter either be informed of the correct amount or remit it to the government entity that is not theirs? That had me baffled when a seller announced , relatively recently, a need for price hikes due to US tariff increases.

PayPal/ebay appears is working on behalf of the buyer/importer (you and me) and has both the exact duty knowledge from the customs clearance process and ability to remit those funds.
I believe just like with Sales Taxes for even US domestic sales which vary by state, PayPal collects and processes from the sales price and would redistribute the tariff calculated in the sales to the federal government as they would do to each state for the state sales tax portion.
 

GregY

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I agree, and B&H has been my main supplier for years, so I bear no ill will there. Yet I can see no other reason for the sudden jumps.

I do not believe they will stick as such long-term in a competitive marketplace, for the same reasons you mention.

There can be any number of reasons for the price increase including but not limited to new stock at a different wholesale price, increase in shipping costs, increase in business costs or wages.....
 
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I believe just like with Sales Taxes for even US domestic sales which vary by state, PayPal collects and processes from the sales price and would redistribute the tariff calculated in the sales to the federal government as they would do to each state for the state sales tax portion.

eBay would handle tariffs similarly within their billing and pay the Federal government directly as they now pay each state its sales tax. Do not know how a private seller in Japan or a company would directly do this so the US customer doesn't have to pay the tariff separately.
 

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eBay would handle tariffs similarly within their billing and pay the Federal government directly as they now pay each state its sales tax. Do not know how a private seller in Japan or a company would directly do this so the US customer doesn't have to pay the tariff separately.

Alan your assumption is based on Ebay/Paypal..... but many international camera purchases are made through direct contact with shops and payments made by credit card or bank transfer....this particularly applies to vintage sales.
When you impose tariffs, you need to create a method to collect them.
 

BrianShaw

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When I bought stuff from Japan, the duties were covered in the Paypal bill. Why couldn't the tariffs be covered just as the shipping, VAT, and other costs are? The seller just adds all the costs together, including the tariffs, and that becomes their selling price.

I believe just like with Sales Taxes for even US domestic sales which vary by state, PayPal collects and processes from the sales price and would redistribute the tariff calculated in the sales to the federal government as they would do to each state for the state sales tax portion.
eBay would handle tariffs similarly within their billing and pay the Federal government directly as they now pay each state its sales tax. Do not know how a private seller in Japan or a company would directly do this so the US customer doesn't have to pay the tariff separately.
Actually, sales tax can vary from county to county with additional sales tax at city level.

But none of that has anything to do with your question in post 349 that taxes (of any kind) and import duty owed by a buyer to their government(s) can be wrapped into the final sale price by a SELLER/exporter. Yes, ebay and some shipping entities can do that as a broker/middle-man but not the SELLER. Otherwise, as stated by @GregY , those become items for you and me to resolve with our respective governments.

If your point is that someone could make our lives as buyers easier, they, sure, ebay does that and could integrate import duties if they so choose. But htat's taking the discussion down a rabbit-hole that might not be highly productive. (Not that any of this is highly productive, but you know what I mean. :smile: )
 
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Harman's largest market is in the USA.
So disruption in USA markets is not going to help.
As I understand it, some of the Ilford branded chemicals are now being made in the USA, and some of the constituent components probably originate outside the USA, so anything is possible.

Great Britain (Harmon, Ilford, et al), because of Brexit is in a good position to end the tariffs on them quickly since they can negotiate with the US directly, unlike the EU with all it;s different nations. Japan has already sent trade representatives to the US to negotiate, so that covers Fujifilm. The Italian premier is scheduled to meet with Trump too. So that covers Farrania. Germany ADox and Czech Forma not sure what's going to happen with their film. Is Czech in the EU? ONly CHina is holding out but they don;t make film most people buy in the west. My Chamonix camera came from there so that will cause a problem for them. The New York Stock Exchange is up 8% (DOW up an amazing 2400 points) right now probably because investors are realizing most countries want to negotiate and these tariffs aren't going to last long, at least not in their present percentages or form. So I wouldn't get too excited about costs quite yet.
 

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Any smart distributor will buy as much as is realistic when the cost is favorable. B&H seems to have done that with MGWT last year, one of the favorite papers (whether they have any profit on that particular item or not, I cannot say). I bought a box of 16X20 earlier this year at reduced pricing. They've since raised it about $30, whereas less popular Cooltone was already raised more the $100 higher, and is now completely out of stock. I wish they'd make a large volume purchase of that too.

A number of nations have just been granted a 90-day reprieve on tariffs, impending negotiations. I hope that includes the UK, giving places like B&H a chance themselves to buy as much Ilford product as they can at at least somewhat favorable pricing. But it's the sheer unpredictable nature of all this, and the person behind it, which makes things so difficult for distributor buying decisions. One can be damned if they do stock up at a certain point, or damned if they don't.

Alan - China is crucial for all lot more than just inflatable swimming pools, lawn chairs, and rubber ducks at Walmart. They have a stranglehold, a near monopoly, on many rare earths and minerals necessary for all kind of things defense, tech, or modern convenience wise. All kinds of industrial operations here will be directly affected. And it certainly doesn't help that a trade war has been begun with our neighbor Canada too, which is the another source for crucial metals. Even invading Greenland or bullying a mineral rights agreement out of Ukraine, or seeking leverage over the Congo, isn't going to change the self-imposed predicament quickly. All that mining infrastructure not only takes time, but can amount to an unwanted enviro catastrophe as well. The US is kinda shooting itself in the foot in that regard.

One of our best domestic sources of platinum and palladium was formerly a giant tungsten mining system on the east side of the Sierra. It also produced a lot of gold. You could see that operation from the trail above it, with 42 switchbacks going right along the side of a big cliff, right past many old gold mining holes in the cliff just like woodpecker holes in a pine tree. Big machinery roads zig zagged up the opposite side of the canyon on Mt Morgan, where all the modern mining was done. The huge ore haulers had driver cabs on both ends, to make negotiating the ridiculously tight curves easier. Right beside me, I have a big 30X40 inch framed Cibachrome print of red monkeyflowers at a spring about halfway up those 42 switchbacks. Nice spot for a needed rest break too! Way up at the top is where the serious ice axe work began.

But once far cheaper tungsten became available from China, all of that was shut down. And the only significant rare earth mining operation in the country in the SoCal desert was outright bought by the Chinese, then itself shut down. I just use a little gold chloride in the darkroom.
which has gone up about 25% since last year.
 
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dhkirby

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There can be any number of reasons for the price increase including but not limited to new stock at a different wholesale price, increase in shipping costs, increase in business costs or wages.....

In general, yes. But given the timing, other specifics (such as both films being increased or the discrepancy with other retailers), and lack of another explanation IE a press release warning of an approaching manufacturing cost, as Harman usually does, I do find it to be the most likely motivation.

You can ascribe it a more virtuous description such as "positioning to weather market uncertainty" if you like.

FWIW Adorama increased the price for HP5 but left Tri-X at $8.99.
 

GregY

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But none of that has anything to do with your question in post 349 that taxes (of any kind) owed by a buyer to their government(s) can be wrapped into the final sale price by a SELLER/exporter. Yes, ebay can do that as a broker/middle-man but not the SELLER.

Yes!....also because Ebay is an American Company. Why would any other non-USA sales platform, or any seller, commercial or private take on the task of calculating, charging, collecting, remitting..... all for another entity. That's about those service charges we complain about with DHL, FedEx, UPS etc.
 
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Alan your assumption is based on Ebay/Paypal..... but many international camera purchases are made through direct contact with shops and payments made by credit card or bank transfer....this particularly applies to vintage sales.
When you impose tariffs, you need to create a method to collect them.

I understand. Once I bought something in the Caribbean while vacationing there, to be shipped home to NY, and had to go to JFK airport where the US Postal System customs was located to pick it up when I paid the import duties. What a day wasted. That's the advantage of using ebay/Paypal now. What do people do today when buying from private sellers or companies directly?
 

BrianShaw

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Any smart distributor will buy as much as is realistic when the cost is favorable.

Absolutely. Yet there is still variability in retail sales, where some sellers price based on what they paid for the specific item we are buying and others "commodity price" and declare that the goods are worth current value no matter what they originally paid.
 

GregY

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In general, yes. But given the timing, other specifics (such as both films being increased or the discrepancy with other retailers), and lack of another explanation IE a press release warning of an approaching manufacturing cost, as Harman usually does, I do find it to be the most likely motivation.

You can ascribe it a more virtuous description such as "positioning to weather market uncertainty" if you like.

FWIW Adorama increased the price for HP5 but left Tri-X at $8.99.

that may be so, but Tri-X comes from a U.S. company. Also the GBP has recently strengthened against the USD....that affects the price of goods originating in the UK.
 

BrianShaw

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What do people do today when buying from private sellers or companies directly?

The seller fills out a customs declaration describing the item and value, and then the customs officials determines the duty and bill us for payment before the item is delivered. See the last sentence of post 364. That's one way. The other is to use an import broker. The other is to deal directly with US (for example) Customs. These systems has been in place for a very long time. The only thing changing now are the tax rates (tariffs) and de minimus exclusion clause
 
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Any smart distributor will buy as much as is realistic when the cost is favorable. B&H seems to have done that with MGWT last year, one of the favorite papers (whether they have any profit on that particular item or not, I cannot say). I bought a box of 16X20 earlier this year at reduced pricing. They've since raised it about $30, whereas less popular Cooltone was already raised more the $100 higher, and is now completely out of stock. I wish they'd make a large volume purchase of that too.

A number of nations have just been granted a 90-day reprieve on tariffs, impending negotiations. I hope that includes the UK, giving places like B&H a chance themselves to buy as much Ilford product as they can at at least somewhat favorable pricing. But it's the sheer unpredictable nature of all this, and the person behind it, which makes things so difficult for distributor buying decisions. One can be damned if they do stock up at a certain point, or damned if they don't.
So that's the reason the markets are up 2500 points! Investors see light at the end of the dark tunnel. I believe the 10% remains, just the individual tariffs were removed except for China..
 

GregY

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Absolutely. Yet there is still variability in retail sales, where some sellers price based on what they paid for the specific item we are buying and others "commodity price" and declare that the goods are worth current value no matter what they originally paid.

Very astutely put. Every company's business practices differ.
 

GregY

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I understand. Once I bought something in the Caribbean while vacationing there, to be shipped home to NY, and had to go to JFK airport where the US Postal System customs was located to pick it up when I paid the import duties. What a day wasted. That's the advantage of using ebay/Paypal now. What do people do today when buying from private sellers or companies directly?

Not everything in the world is on Ebay or can be paid for by Paypal....
Credit cards, bank transfers.......
 

ChrisGalway

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But none of that has anything to do with your question in post 349 that taxes (of any kind) owed by a buyer to their government(s) can be wrapped into the final sale price by a SELLER/exporter. Yes, ebay can do that but not the SELLER.

That's correct in my experience, and is the reason why I (living in the EU) nearly always buy from individual sellers within the EU ... no additional taxes to pay. (Like buying from within the US if you live in the US, it's very straightforward.)

When I buy stuff from outside the EU, I tend to use eBay, AliExpress or Amazon, all of whom handle the Value Added Tax (VAT) without charging extra fees. We pay VAT on almost everything (except food, books, children's clothes) within the EU, and "everything" also includes things we import from outside the EU ... there is no escaping VAT and for me (Ireland) its a whopping 23%.

If I buy from an individual seller outside the EU, the courier or postal service collects the VAT and charges an extra fee for doing so. But a bigger problem, especially when the seller is not used to international norms (i.e. many US sellers!), is that the seller fails to put the correct HS/Taric code on the package, so it gets returned to the seller by customs. Sellers can't just write "camera" on the customs form, they must put a HS/Taric code. I'd say the VAT charges are the lessor of the two issues, getting the documentation right is the bigger issue.
 
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The seller fills out a customs declaration describing the item and value, and then the customs officials determines the duty and bill us for payment before the item is delivered. See the last sentence of post 364. That's one way. The other is to use an import broker. The other is to deal directly with US (for example) Customs. These systems has been in place for a very long time. The only thing changing now are the tax rates (tariffs) and de minimus exclusion clause

Can't the sales tax and tariffs and import duties be paid to an international shipper like DHL along with their shipping charges? Then DHL pays the government for the purchaser? Just like ebay or Paypal would do?
 
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Not everything in the world is on Ebay or can be paid for by Paypal....
Credit cards, bank transfers.......

I believe when B&H in the USA ships internationally, they collect all foreign charges and reimbursed the foreign governments. These costs are included of course, in their total selling price. So what do you do in Canada if you buy something directly from the original manufacturer or store that doesn't handle these charges? How do you get the package in Alberta?
 
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