Using Vinegar as a Stop Bath

[MattKing]

Is there any preservative that can be added to the stop bath, to stop the above happening, and thus avoid having to constantly drain and refill a Nova, which are bought to partly avoid this?

Yes - use acetic acid based stop bath .
The mould problem (plus higher cost) is the downside of citric acid based stop baths.
I expect that if there was a solution for the problem it would already have been marketed.

 

[ic-racer]

White vinegar is acetic acid. It comes diluted with water to about 5% but it is frequently still stronger than the usual dilution for photographic stop bath. One might want to dilute a 5% acetic acid solution (Wallmart Distilled White Vinegar) to 2.5% for use.
Fixer is the most expensive component chemical in my darkroom. I don't know why I'd ever consider contaminating it with developer by avoiding an acid stop bath. The good thing is that I'm the only one that works in my darkroom so I make the rules!

 

[138S]

Fixer is the most expensive component chemical in my darkroom. I don't know why I'd ever consider contaminating it with developer by avoiding an acid stop bath. .... I make the rules!

Amazingly, water stop is the solution that always protects totally the fixer, even you may dump two or three times the water in the tank if you want, so you only put totally clean wet film in the fixer, no contamination of the fixer, never.

This is not the case of acid stop when using an akaline fixer... if using an acid stop you may contaminate an alkalne fixer with the acid from the stop that film will bring. Anyway, of course, it will work.

 

[ic-racer]

Amazingly, water stop is the solution that always protects totally the fixer, even you may dump two or three times the water in the tank if you want, so you only put totally clean wet film in the fixer, no contamination of the fixer, never.

This is not the case of acid stop when using an akaline fixer... if using an acid stop you may contaminate an alkalne fixer with the acid from the stop that film will bring. Anyway, of course, it will work.

I'm sure it is no big deal for you to load up those extra bottles! But not everyone's processor can hold the extra bottles of water. It is great to experiment, be sure to control your test and use your own film.

 

[138S]

But not everyone's processor can hold the extra bottles of water.

You simply program a rinse procedure in the processor for the stop, no bottle needed... so for BW you only need two chem bottles.

In fact I use a distilled water (with wetting agent) 3rd bottle in the processor, but this is used after fixing and washing, in that way drying marks are prevented.

 

[guangong]

• Acetic acid is not fixer but is only a stop bath.
• At one point I did the math, because I am that cheap. A tray of 2% acetic acid stop bath, regardless of the source, is about the same price, whether you use household 5% vinegar, 28%, or glacial.
• Citric acid in all it's forms is more per tray with less capacity per liter of working solution. And you can't (or shouldn't) save a tray of diluted citric acid stop (even if using a commercial preparation with an indicator) because stuff grows in it.

After almost 70 yrs I know it’s stop bath. At the moment brain and finger not working together. Don’t think I cam blame this one on iPad.
Of course, as noted glacial acetic acid takes up a lot less storage space.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Sometimes I use diluted vinegar. Sometimes I use citric acid. Sometimes I use indicator stop bath. Whichever I use, it helps extend the life of the fixer.

 

[darkroommike]

After almost 70 yrs I know it’s stop bath. At the moment brain and finger not working together. Don’t think I cam blame this one on iPad.
Of course, as noted glacial acetic acid takes up a lot less storage space.

Blame the iPad, I do, and I don't own an iPad.

 

[ChristopherCoy]

Gees... the congressional shutdown of 2018 didn't even last as long as this thread.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

Conventional acid fixers and near-neutral rapid fixers (e.g., Ilford Rapid Fixer) all benefit from an acid stop bath. Alkaline fixers are almost always buffered well and designed to be used with an acid stop bath also. Although the acid stop won't help preserve these fixers, they don't hurt them either, and, they help prevent the alkaline environment of the fixer from reactivating the carried-over developer.

A water-stop will stop development, but it doesn't wash out the developer. Developer in the emulsion of the film doesn't fully wash out till the washing step after fixation. If you want, test this by water stopping your film for 30 sec. or so, transferring it to an alkaline fixer and immediately turning on the room lights. You'll get some fog or streaking from reactivated developer acting on the newly exposed, yet unfixed halides. (That's why it's a good idea not to expose the film to light when using alkaline fixer until fixing is at least halfway complete.) Maybe if you washed your film for five or ten minutes between developer and fixer... Or, you could use an acid fixer for film.

Best,

Doremus

 

[alanrockwood]

...Developer in the emulsion of the film doesn't fully wash out till the washing step after fixation. If you want, test this by water stopping your film for 30 sec. or so, transferring it to an alkaline fixer and immediately turning on the room lights. You'll get some fog or streaking from reactivated developer acting on the newly exposed, yet unfixed halides....

Best,

Doremus

What happens if you do the same experiment except using an acid stop?

 

[Bill Burk]

Glacial acetic is a hazard, better mixing it outdoors.

If you calibrate your film you will see that a plain water stop bath delivers the same result. With plain water developement needs a few seconds more to totally stop, so you may shorten development some 5 to 10 seconds for a perfect match.

Generally plain water is better because you don't carry chem to the fixer (that can be alkaline!), you dump the water every time so it does not accumulate developer like a reused stop bath.

I test my development but would not find a 30 seconds difference to be significant in development time. Though my time-CI chart can tell me to the nearest 15 seconds, that’s not a critical time to me. I sometimes roll across the lines of the crosswalk.

My take on Vinegar as Stop will depend on which I have more of. If you are going to use vinegar, buy a gallon - you will go through it fast.

Also like that orange indicator color that turns purple after using it.

 

[138S]

I test my development but would not find a 30 seconds difference to be significant in development time. Though my time-CI chart can tell me to the nearest 15 seconds, that’s not a critical time to me. I sometimes roll across the lines of the crosswalk.

My take on Vinegar as Stop will depend on which I have more of. If you are going to use vinegar, buy a gallon - you will go through it fast.

Also like that orange indicator color that turns purple after using it.

I agree.

I pointed those perhaps 5-10 seconds to suggest how irrelevant the change is...

IMO the acid stop is mostly about tradition, in fact C-41 and E-6 don't waste any effort in such a thing. Clear water also stops develpoment and totally cleans film for the folowing chem.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

What happens if you do the same experiment except using an acid stop?

You'll get some fogging too, but possibly not as much since the acid stop may render some of the developer completely inactive. I'm not sure here. FWIW I got fogging when using an acid stop and an alkaline fix and hitting the lights too early. I switched back to a mildly-acid rapid fixer for film after that.

The point of mentioning that is to refute the idea that a water stop will "clean" the film of developer. It's still there and needs to be washed out of the emulsion just like the fixer (and the sensitizing dyes).

Best,

Doremus

 

[ChristopherCoy]

So basically this is a:

Ford vs Chevy
Nikon vs Canon
Sail vs Power
Vanilla vs Chocolate
Cat vs Dog
Over vs Under

...kind of conversation?

 

[MattKing]

So basically this is a:

Ford vs Chevy
Nikon vs Canon
Sail vs Power
Vanilla vs Chocolate
Cat vs Dog
Over vs Under

...kind of conversation?

No.
It is a conversation about obtaining reliable and repeatable, high quality results. And in some situations, it is about maximizing the effective use of materials while minimizing costs.
And in some cases about how to get good results when you have difficulty obtaining some materials.
And in some cases about which materials work well with others, and which don't.

 

[ChristopherCoy]

No.
It is a conversation about obtaining reliable and repeatable, high quality results. And in some situations, it is about maximizing the effective use of materials while minimizing costs.
And in some cases about how to get good results when you have difficulty obtaining some materials.
And in some cases about which materials work well with others, and which don't.

Sure it's about all that, but in the end, you dont HAVE to drive a ford, shoot a nikon, sail a boat, eat vanilla, own a dog, or put the toilet paper on in the "over" orientation. There's a whole multitude of combinations that pretty much all come down to personal taste and preferences.

ETA: Because no one has given a hard "no" to the question of using vinegar as a stop bath. They've just provided reasons why THEY prefer to do so, or not to do so.

 

[Donald Qualls]

I'm coming into this late, but as far as I'm concerned, the only difference between diluting white distilled vinegate 1+1 with water, and using standard stop bath at 2.5% concentration is the indicator dye -- and the cost.

Stop bath costs less than vinegar in this usage. You can't confidently reuse diluted vinegar after, say, a printing session (you probably could after film, though you'd need to either check pH regularly or keep track of how many films like you do with fixer or reusable developers). You're also paying (priced in) the cost of shipping all the water in your vinegar, compared to stop batch concentrate (commonly 28% acetic, so less than 20% of the weight for the same amount of working solution). Combine the two savings and commercial indicator stop bath is one of the best deals in photography -- if you use stop bath.

 

[MattKing]

Sure it's about all that, but in the end, you dont HAVE to drive a ford, shoot a nikon, sail a boat, eat vanilla, own a dog, or put the toilet paper on in the "over" orientation. There's a whole multitude of combinations that pretty much all come down to personal taste and preferences.

ETA: Because no one has given a hard "no" to the question of using vinegar as a stop bath. They've just provided reasons why THEY prefer to do so, or not to do so.

But Christopher, that wasn't the initial question.
The question was "For those who have garnered consistent results from using vinegar in film/print processing, what type (cider, distilled white, etc.) is recommended, and should it be diluted or not?"
So people answered the question, and added discussion about the use of stop bath in general. Given the number of people who are under the misunderstanding that there is no difference between using stop bath and using water, the discussion is helpful.

I'm coming into this late, but as far as I'm concerned, the only difference between diluting white distilled vinegate 1+1 with water, and using standard stop bath at 2.5% concentration is the indicator dye -- and the cost.

This (as long as you are referring to acetic acid based stop bath). Although there is the additional advantage that distilled white vinegar is normally more widely available on your neighbourhood store shelves.

 

[ChristopherCoy]

But Christopher, that wasn't the initial question.
The question was "For those who have garnered consistent results from using vinegar in film/print processing, what type (cider, distilled white, etc.) is recommended, and should it be diluted or not?"
So people answered the question, and added discussion about the use of stop bath in general. Given the number of people who are under the misunderstanding that there is no difference between using stop bath and using water, the discussion is helpful.

You're right, you got me there.

I found the discussion through a search for "using vinegar as stop bath", and so my question was whether you can or can't. I misinterpreted/misunderstood the original question.

 

[Randy Stewart]

I'm a bit embarased to invest my time on this thread, but no one has really answered the question which comes to my mind: Why? Vinagar comes in various strengths which have to be sorted out. Unlike stop bath, it does not contain an indicator dye to tell you when it is exhausted, allowing making stop bath more efficient. If I was 200 miles up the Congo and had a choice of using river water or vinagar, I could see a point. Sacrameno isn't that far off the beaten path.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I'm a bit embarased to invest my time on this thread, but no one has really answered the question which comes to my mind: Why? Vinagar comes in various strengths which have to be sorted out. Unlike stop bath, it does not contain an indicator dye to tell you when it is exhausted, allowing making stop bath more efficient. If I was 200 miles up the Congo and had a choice of using river water or vinagar, I could see a point. Sacrameno isn't that far off the beaten path.

The only good reason that I have been able to figure out is that Stop Bath with Indicator is just so damned expensive.

 

[MattKing]

I'm a bit embarased to invest my time on this thread, but no one has really answered the question which comes to my mind: Why?

More and more, people are having difficulty accessing photo chemicals except through the internet, because many areas don't have local stores any more.
Many of the stop baths are difficult and/or expensive to ship.
White distilled vinegar is widely available.
QED

 

[pentaxuser]

I've used store bought vinegar, diluted down 90% in water as my fixer for the past 35 years. Have I been doing it wrong?

It depends. If it is what we call malt vinegar in the U.K. then there is danger after 35 years of forming a compulsion for constantly entering fish and chip shops.

pentaxuser

 

[Donald Qualls]

At least where I shop for groceries, distilled white vinegar is labeled as 5% acidity, every bottle (even the really, really cheaper-than-store-brand Cha-Ching brand). No strength to sort out; dilute 1+1 and you've got standard stop bath strength. No indicator, obviously (I just ordered a bottle of bromocresol purple powder, 3 ounces weight for $15, that'll solve that problem). I wouldn't even consider using malt vinegar, red wine vinegar, apple cider vinegar, or heaven forbid balsamic vinegar on film -- no idea what else is in them.

Even at the Cha-Ching price level, though, you're paying more per unit of working stop bath, without indicator, buying vinegar than you would if you buy either stop bath concentrate or make your own from higher concentration acetic acid (I also ordered a quart of 75% acetic, it was half the price of the same size jug of glacial). Both chemicals were in stock on Amazon. Unless I'm totally lost on how much indicator I'll need, I should be able to beat both commercial stop bath and vinegar for price, with a working solution that's got everything the commercial stop baths do. If you prefer odorless stop, I think citric acid has low enough pH to use bromocresol purple indicator in it, too (yellow below pH 5.2, purple above pH 5.8) and is available in powder form, from the same place I got my acetic and indicator.