Thoughts on Adox' film offer (as opposed to their chemistry offer)

[MattKing]

Thanks for the help everyone. I now have 9 rolls of CHS 100 II film on the way.

GregY should contact Argentix and get his sales commission.

Jacques at Argentix is great. I just wish he could scale up the availability of what he has on offer.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I deal with Jacques all the time! Always a pleasure!

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

This is what I see on Argentix' website:
View attachment 348402

Crickey! Just checked and now all gone!

 

[GregY]

Jacques at Argentix is great. I just wish he could scale up the availability of what he has on offer.

Yes, those 9 rolls of 35mm finished off their Adox. Since Covid, there seems to be more out-of-stock than in stock, on their website, as far as film and paper are concerned. Like Adox film, Foma paper is virtually all gone.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

When anything is out of stock, I usually just email Jacques and ask him if and when he can bring the item in.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I really want to try some of that HR50... and it would be really nice to see Adox bring back CMS 20 II in 120...

 

[Dustin McAmera]

I just ordered a few rolls of 35mm CHS100ii. Since Brexit (#littlebitofpolitics) I have to order at least 170 Euros' worth of stuff at a time. If I ordered that much as film, I would use it, slowly, but I confess it's off-putting: maybe wouldn't be if I could get a new job. Also because of Brexit, Fotoimpex can't charge me the VAT; but I will have to go to the depot and pay import duty on the stuff before I can have it (and I don't know in advance exactly how much that will be). Anyhow I think it could be as soon as tomorrow, from the DHL tracking.

My dozen rolls of film, and a few hoods and some developer, arrived this afternoon. I didn't have to pay any tax, so now I have to stop griping, though this is a strictly temporary measure. All the hoods fit the things they are for, nothing vignettes, everything is groovy. The first roll of CHS100ii will go in my Zenit (the original Zenit; mine is from 1953, so is 70 years old this year), as soon as I finish the HP5 that's in there now. I also want to put some in my Balda Jubilette, and then maybe the Canon A-1.

 

[GregY]

When anything is out of stock, I usually just email Jacques and ask him if and when he can bring the item in.

Ordering & getting are two different things. I've special ordered Foma paper through B&H....with a stated delivery time of 4-5 weeks and in the end it took 3 months. As good as the retailers are.....they are at the mercy of the manufacturer.

 

[Henning Serger]

I really want to try some of that HR50... and it would be really nice to see Adox bring back CMS 20 II in 120...

Andrew, as you like CMS 20 II (as I do) here the main differences between CMS 20 II and HR-50 / SCALA 50:

1) Spectral sensitization:
CMS 20 II: Orthopanchromatic.
HR-50: Superpanchromatic.

2) Detail rendition: Resolution, sharpness, fineness of grain:
In this area CMS 20 II is simply an absolutely unique league of its own. Huge advantages over all other films and all digital sensors.
In my standard resolution test I was able to reach the diffraction limit of white light at f5.6 - 240-260 lp/mm - with an object contrast of only two stops with that film and my 50mm normal lenses from Nikon and Zeiss.
Sharpness and fineness of grain are also absolutely unsurpassed. Even with 35mm film this film can be enlarged as big as you want.
I have enlarged it up to five meters (!) in projection. And that wasn't yet the limit!

Together with a friend and LF enthusiast we've tested CMS 20 II in 35mm vs. 4x5".
CMS 20II 35mm surpassed Fomapan 100 in 4x5". And to regain an advantage in detail rendition for 4x5" we needed Acros 100.

With HR-50 I got under the exact same test conditions in my standard resolution test 135-150 lp/mm. That is comparable to TMX.
But:
HR-50 delivers significantly better sharpness and much finer grain than TMX. So HR-50 can be enlarged much more.
HR-50 in 35mm is often delivering a quality level comparable to standard films in 4.5x6 / 6x6.
And in combination with one of the outstanding latest high-performance lenses (e.g. Leica and Voigtländer APOs, Zeiss Otus and Milvus, Sigma Art line) often even better quality.

3) Effective film speed:
For having an optimal tonality and best characteristic curve (considering the technical limits of these film types) I prefer EI 6-9 for CMS 20 II in Adotech IV, and EI 25-40 (depending on the developer) with HR-50. And EI 50 in the SCALA reversal process.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Ernst-Jan]

Do the above names sound romantic to you? How about

Adox Milton-Keynes 100
Adox Slough 400
Adox Ayr 800

Better? Same concept. My point wasn't that naming should be romantic, rather that it should be mnemonic.

What do this names have to do with the product? Why give a city name to a film. It does not make sense. What has a Adox film to do with Bremen.

That there is no 120 yet is widely discussed here, they are working on it as much as they can / as much as they have financial room (profit on chemicals are said to be higher than on film). Mirko also explained that the market for 400 speed is quite saturated.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Andrew, as you like CMS 20 II (as I do) here the main differences between CMS 20 II and HR-50 / SCALA 50:

1) Spectral sensitization:
CMS 20 II: Orthopanchromatic.
HR-50: Superpanchromatic.

2) Detail rendition: Resolution, sharpness, fineness of grain:
In this area CMS 20 II is simply an absolutely unique league of its own. Huge advantages over all other films and all digital sensors.
In my standard resolution test I was able to reach the diffraction limit of white light at f5.6 - 240-260 lp/mm - with an object contrast of only two stops with that film and my 50mm normal lenses from Nikon and Zeiss.
Sharpness and fineness of grain are also absolutely unsurpassed. Even with 35mm film this film can be enlarged as big as you want.
I have enlarged it up to five meters (!) in projection. And that wasn't yet the limit!

Together with a friend and LF enthusiast we've tested CMS 20 II in 35mm vs. 4x5".
CMS 20II 35mm surpassed Fomapan 100 in 4x5". And to regain an advantage in detail rendition for 4x5" we needed Acros 100.

With HR-50 I got under the exact same test conditions in my standard resolution test 135-150 lp/mm. That is comparable to TMX.
But:
HR-50 delivers significantly better sharpness and much finer grain than TMX. So HR-50 can be enlarged much more.
HR-50 in 35mm is often delivering a quality level comparable to standard films in 4.5x6 / 6x6.
And in combination with one of the outstanding latest high-performance lenses (e.g. Leica and Voigtländer APOs, Zeiss Otus and Milvus, Sigma Art line) often even better quality.

3) Effective film speed:
For having an optimal tonality and best characteristic curve (considering the technical limits of these film types) I prefer EI 6-9 for CMS 20 II in Adotech IV, and EI 25-40 (depending on the developer) with HR-50. And EI 50 in the SCALA reversal process.

Best regards,
Henning

Thank you for that, Henning! I've only been using CMS 20 II in 4x5. It's eye popping sharp. I would like to try it in 120 if that ever happens... As far as HR-50 goes, as soon as it lands at Argentix again, I definitely will try it... mainly for its IR capabilities. Cheers!

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

...actually, is HR-50 even made anymore?

 

[Henning Serger]

...actually, is HR-50 even made anymore?

It is:

ADOX HR-50 135/36 with SPEED BOOST - fotoimpex.com analogue photography

Introduced at Photokina 2018: ADOX HR-50 stands for "High Resolution". ADOX HR-50 is based on an established emulsion commonly available for technical purposes, featuring ...

www.fotoimpex.com

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

It is:

ADOX HR-50 135/36 with SPEED BOOST - fotoimpex.com analogue photography

Introduced at Photokina 2018: ADOX HR-50 stands for "High Resolution". ADOX HR-50 is based on an established emulsion commonly available for technical purposes, featuring ...

www.fotoimpex.com

Best regards,
Henning

Thank you!

 

[Steven Lee]

@Henning Serger I hope you don't mind if we use you as an ADOX product marketing expert? I have been searching for information regarding CHS 100II and found nothing. Why does this film exist? What are its features and benefits? All product information from ADOX is optimized for users who used the original CHS 100. I am not one of them. So this film is a mystery to me. I can only tell that it's not a t-grain emulsion, which means pronounced grain. But how does it compare to FP4+ for example? Kentmere 100? Fomapan 100?

 

[Prest_400]

@Henning Serger I hope you don't mind if we use you as an ADOX product marketing expert? I have been searching for information regarding CHS 100II and found nothing. Why does this film exist? What are its features and benefits? All product information from ADOX is optimized for users who used the original CHS 100. I am not one of them. So this film is a mystery to me. I can only tell that it's not a t-grain emulsion, which means pronounced grain. But how does it compare to FP4+ for example? Kentmere 100? Fomapan 100?

It will be interesting when Adox jumps into this thread. Always appreciated Mirko and his team transparency and passion.

Would say that the ethos of CHS100II makes much more sense knowing the history behind it, dating back to the 60s and the Original ADOX. From that, the factory and formulas were sold off to Fotokemika Efke in Yugoslavia. This film is basically the last iteration from that legacy, when Fotokemika's factory was falling apart in 2012 ADOX jumped in to save the film equimpent and created an improved product. They also did the same with Forte for polywarmtone.
Actually wikipedia's article is rather decent: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADOX

 

[Henning Serger]

@Henning Serger I hope you don't mind if we use you as an ADOX product marketing expert?

Steven, well, I indeed do mind being used as an marketing expert in this case.
But I don't mind at all being used as an independent film test expert, who has tested almost all films of the market including CHS 100 II, and who is also using CHS 100 II for certain applications quite regularly .

I have been searching for information regarding CHS 100II and found nothing. Why does this film exist?

Well, it is just the needed successor of former CHS 100, after Fotokemika unexpectedly closed its operation. ADOX had explained it very honestly, including here on photrio: Have a look on posting No 31:

ADOX CHS 100 II is back in 35mm!

Adox CHS 100 II is a too long and complicated name I always wanted to know what does the CHS stands for. Maybe Controlled Highlight Sensitometry? Confoederatio Helvetica Specialis? ("switzerland's specific") Can Hold Stills? Customed for Henning Serger? @Henning Serger

www.photrio.com

What are its features and benefits?

1. Simply its existance as an urgently needed successor of former CHS 100 after Fotokemika's closure.
2. Much improved quality compared to its forerunner:
- finer grain
- much better sharpness
- much higher resolution
- much better anti-halation undercoat
- much better tonality because of an optimal characteristic curve
- much higher production quality standards.
3. Different spectral sensitivity compared to most other films on the market.

I can only tell that it's not a t-grain emulsion, which means pronounced grain. But how does it compare to FP4+ for example? Kentmere 100? Fomapan 100?

Compared to all these three it offers higher resolution, better sharpness (especially compared to Fomapan and Kentmere), a different spectral sensitivity (darker reds, a bit different skin tones).
Compared to Fomapan and Kentmere 100 also a bit finer grain in certain developers. And a much better AHU (Anti-Halation-Undercoat).

My personal reasons for quite regular use of CHS 100 II for certain applications / projects:
My main used ISO 100/21° BW film is Delta 100. Using it since its introduction, outstanding film. Compared to FP4+ it offers much much better resolution, sharpness and fineness of grain (and with almost identical spectral sensitivity).
In combination with my preferred developers and my best lenses I get a picture quality in 35mm which is very close to FP4+ in 4.5x6 / 6x6.
And Delta 100 in MF: No wish anymore for LF .
So I can make big prints with outstanding quality with Delta 100.

But:
There are simply certain situations and objects for which I do want a very different look, with less resolution and sharpness, and more visible grain.
Or with a different spectral sensitivity.
And for such applications I just like CHS 100 II. For example I really like this film for natural portraits.
Horses for courses.
And sometimes my clients want just exactly that look.

I hope this is helpful information for you.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[albireo]

What do this names have to do with the product? Why give a city name to a film. It does not make sense. What has a Adox film to do with Bremen.

That there is no 120 yet is widely discussed here, they are working on it as much as they can / as much as they have financial room (profit on chemicals are said to be higher than on film). Mirko also explained that the market for 400 speed is quite saturated.

Nothing personal, but I sense in your reply above a certain emotional attachment to the topic we're discussing that's obfuscating your rational comprehension. I wasn't literally suggesting that Adox should heed my advice and rename their products with city names, specifically those German city names.

Broadly, my initial post was a suggestion that there is a potentially large, untapped user base out there that

• doesn't use Photrio or analog photography enthusiast forums
• doesn't know what CHS/HR/CMS etc mean
• likes easy to remember product names
• doesn't know, or care, what the difference between CHS I or II is
• has absolutely no idea who Mirko is
• doesn't really know what Adox does better than others
• ...

and yet..

• buys and shoots a lot of black and white film
• is vocal on social media on the film they shoot
• would gladly stop using expensive Kodak film, and use less Ilford and Foma, if only had a more (suitable? understandable? varied?) product range from Adox

Perhaps this user base could become an attractive new stable customer base for Adox over the next 20-50 years? I would think so.

Importantly, those above are not entirely MY PERSONAL feelings on the matter. The above is a hypothetical marketing persona and those bullet points only partially overlap with my own feelings on the matter. You should familiarise yourself with the concept of marketing persona if you haven't heard about it before

Persona (user experience) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

A persona (also user persona, customer persona, buyer persona) in user-centered design and marketing is a personalized fictional character created to represent a user type that might use a site, brand, or product in a similar way.[1] Personas represent the similarities of consumer groups or segments. They are based on demographic and behavioural personal information collected from users, qualitative interviews, and participant observation.

My conjecture (and here I readily admit I am not a Marketing professional and I have not done a marketing survey on the matter, so apologies to all the Marketing professionals out there) is that there could be untapped commercial potential for Adox if they tweaked (rebranded, expanded, supported) their film offer. I then humorously suggested 'a way forward' by proposing those names.

Of course, a couple of gents somewhere down the thread suggested Adox has other fish to fry than rethink their film brand/offer. In which case, fair enough, I go back to my Ilford and Foma 100/125/200/400 ISO film developed in Adox chemistry, and I wish Adox and their Photrio fanbase all the best!

 

[pentaxuser]

Thank you for that, Henning! I've only been using CMS 20 II in 4x5. It's eye popping sharp.

It is said that at the right enlargement CMS20 II in 4x5 and erected at the right height a print in Colquitlam can be viewed as if in a normal gallery by EK employees in Rochester.

What's my source for this claim, some will ask. It's me - I just wrote it

pentaxuser - member of the QUESEKASIE organisation

 

[Ivo Stunga]

But going back to Silvermax (where they had gotten the catchy name right). My next issue with Adox' film offer is continuity. Following my short lived honeymoon with Silvermax, I'm just not sure if I should commit or invest testing time and resources to a product for which the window of existence is unclear.

Why base your choice of film based on end of an existence? Especially in this day where only select companies are able to coat film? Wouldn't you shoot Velvia if Fuji stated that they'll discontinue it in 2030?

So that's one thing off my chest. The naming. What should I choose for my next order from Photoimpex, Adox? 10 rolls of 'Fomapan 100'? 2 rolls of TMAX? 1 roll of Velvia? Or 10 rolls of ... CHM-S 100 plus II? Partially joking here, but you get the gist of it.

You must've missed Scala 50 (same film as HR-50) and Scala 160 - although I haven't seen 160 (the same film as Silvermax) in stores for a long time and am curious why it's listed on the site.

abstruse coded names like CHS 100 II, HR-50, CMS 20 X-tra proto etc etc

Adox naming hadn't struck me as odd or anything - I guess that the previous generation is used to model name flexing and give no second thought. It's nowhere close to say my LG OLED: 55EC930V-ZA. In fact, I'd find it silly if it was named something like LG Blacklake. Ewww.

 

[JParker]

I don't care much for names. And I am not so much interested in marketing.
I want tools that work for me as a photographer.

I like the results I've got with CHS 100 II.
And I really love the results of HR-50. And because of that my (only) wish so far is an extension in that direction:
Another film with Speed Boost technology: Aviphot Pan 200. That one and HR-50 would form a perfect duo.

 

[Steven Lee]

Compared to all these three it offers higher resolution, better sharpness (especially compared to Fomapan and Kentmere), a different spectral sensitivity (darker reds, a bit different skin tones). Compared to Fomapan and Kentmere 100 also a bit finer grain in certain developers. And a much better AHU (Anti-Halation-Undercoat).

My personal reasons for quite regular use of CHS 100 II for certain applications / projects:
My main used ISO 100/21° BW film is Delta 100. Using it since its introduction, outstanding film. Compared to FP4+ it offers much much better resolution, sharpness and fineness of grain (and with almost identical spectral sensitivity).
In combination with my preferred developers and my best lenses I get a picture quality in 35mm which is very close to FP4+ in 4.5x6 / 6x6.
And Delta 100 in MF: No wish anymore for LF .
So I can make big prints with outstanding quality with Delta 100.

But:
There are simply certain situations and objects for which I do want a very different look, with less resolution and sharpness, and more visible grain.
Or with a different spectral sensitivity.

Thank you! Now I am certainly intrigued by its different spectral sensitivity.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

It is said that at the right enlargement CMS20 II in 4x5 and erected at the right height a print in Colquitlam can be viewed as if in a normal gallery by EK employees in Rochester.

What's my source for this claim, some will ask. It's me - I just wrote it

pentaxuser - member of the QUESEKASIE organisation

　I know my younger brother back home in Saskatchewan can see it from Coquitlam.

 

[bluechromis]

The link is from Adox almost a year ago discussing the challenges of ramping of 120 production. Perhaps there is newer info. somewhere. https://www.adox.de/Photo/why-we-still-cannot-make-120-film/

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

The link is from Adox almost a year ago discussing the challenges of ramping of 120 production. Perhaps there is newer info. somewhere. https://www.adox.de/Photo/why-we-still-cannot-make-120-film/

I hope they get it up and running soon! Thanks for posting!